Where does strength come from?

It certainly isn't from size. Let me give an example. In our BJJ gym, there are people of all sizes, and what has come to my surprise is that it has little to do with the physique of that particular person.

I've sparred with guys who have the physique of Vin Diesel, and some of them can be easy to overpower. Similarily, there is a guy at the gym who looks skinny, almost frail, and he is more explosive and stronger than most.

So I wonder, he does not have any noticeable muscle mass, so where does his strength come from?

One could also give other more concrete examples, like how Randy overpowers Brock and drives him into the cage and is about to throw Brock down on the ground (only stopped by Brock holding on to the cage which is illegal). Point is, it seems muscle doesn't equal strength, so where does strength originate from?

 

strength comes from the recruitment of muscle fibers, and the power those fibers exert.

he's simply being efficient.

 

Are you saying his muscle fibers are more efficient than the average person? Or his level of skill?

 

the nerves that recruit the fibers. that, and lean muscle has more power available per unit cross-sectional area than fatty muscle. and he's (probably) simply being 'sharper' about things. apparent strength is usually more about just using the right muscles at the right time.

 

Size *is* actually a factor. It's just not the only one. I'd also hazard a guess that technique makes more of a difference in martial arts than it does in weightlifting.

 

Good angles. Applying pressure in a direction where there is no resistance, or where it is difficult to resist, will make someone's apparent strength much larger.
A good wrestler will feel MUCH heavier than he actually is because of the way he applies his weight.

 

I firmly believe that the bigger is the muscle the slower it gets, for example bodybuilders are slow(and weak too I think, but I can't say for sure).
I always trained to have an explosive muscle and I think that's stronger too.
It's better to have "moderate" muscles which are explosive and strong than having Xlarge muscles which are slow and with that also weaker.

 

what they said (edit: not including auxman)

muscle fibers generate force by contracting. nerves can affect the recruitment of muscle fibers, so they must also be trained. a muscle with more mass will exert more force (f=ma; this is increasing m). through technique, you can use more muscles at once, and coordinate them to maximize the amount of strength you can generate. there are also different types of muscle fibers: fast-twitch and slow-twitch (first google link i found: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/MuscleFiberType.htm), how you train these will vary your ability to exert force over a period of time, and how long you take to apply your maximum force (in this case modifying a in the equation). now this is all force in relation to your own body. you don't magically apply force to other objects (unless you're a jedi ); you push or pull them with your own in various ways. for this you need leverage. this is affected by your technique, as it results in you moving so that your joints' ranges of motion enable you to exert force in the most efficient vectors for what you want to do. and then there are various ways of transferring force to other objects, none of which involve the f=ma equation, although some use F as a variable. see this link:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/09/hitting-harder-physics-made-easy.html

for a good explanation (just ignore the anti-boxing comments)

 

Strength isn't one dimensional as you have noticed. That Vin Deisal looking guy can probably lift a bigger weight than your skinny explosive friend, but if you gave them both a moderate weight and tested who could rep the most in a couple of minutes your skinny friend would likely win, going on what you have said. The explosive skinny guy is better equiped for the pressure tests of fighting in this case.

In other words there are different 'dimensions' to strength. Where strength comes from is probably a mixture of muscle fibres and nervous system, faschia etc. The different ways in which these elements are trained and combined in any given body are what produces different types. Theres also our body type and default to consider as most of us will be a bit different 'out of the box' so to speak.

Good technique isn't about any kind of strength per se, in the sense it seeks to make the most efficient use of it and isn't reliant on it for its success. Lots of people seem to have brought it up, but I'm not sure how relevent technique is to what's been asked to be honest. Other than to highlight than in fighting the last thing you would probably be reliant on in applying strength to technique is maximal load strength. Speed, explosion and endurence are much more of a consideration.

You should search out Ross Eminet and how he describes the different aspects of strength training - speed, endurence, maximal load and explosive strength. It's good stuff for those motivated to train their strength for martial arts specifically. There have been some threads and reviews of his work/ programs on MAP worth looking up.

 

I'd point you at professional sprinters to contradict your first assertion (ignore the caption at the top - it was the best pic I could find to make my point):



. . . and Coleman's 800lbs deadlift to contradict your second:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uue-jmP9szQ"]YouTube[/ame]

Professional bodybuilders could arguably said to be slow but they are an extreme case. IMO it's their sheer bodyweight itself that is slowing them down, not an inherent property of muscle itself. As for bodybuilders being weak, I suspect you're buying into the belief that bodybuilders are proportionally weaker than a strength-focused athlete of the same weight. Whereas there may well be some truth in that as a generalisation, both bodybuilders and powerlifters are going to be both bigger and stronger as a result of their training, regardless of what their primary focus is.

 

A very complicated question.

First it's about the development of different muscle fibres

Cardiac
Cardiac muscle tissue forms the bulk of the wall of the heart. Like skeletal muscle tissue, it is striated (the muscle fibers contain alternating light and dark bands (striations) that are perpendicular to the long axes of the fibers). Unlike skeletal muscle tissue, its contraction is usually not under conscious control (involuntary).

Smooth
Smooth muscle tissue is located in the walls of hollow internal structures such as blood vessels, the stomach, intestines, and urinary bladder. Smooth muscle fibers are usually involuntary (not under conscious control), and they are nonstriated (smooth). Smooth muscle tissue, like skeletal and cardiac muscle tissue, can undergo hypertrophy. In addition, certain smooth muscle fibres, such as those in the uterus, retain their capacity for division and can grow by hyperplasia.

Skeletal
Skeletal muscle tissue is named for its location - attached to bones. It is striated; that is, the fibers (cells) contain alternating light and dark bands (striations) that are perpendicular to the long axes of the fibers. Skeletal muscle tissue can be made to contract or relax by conscious control (voluntary).

All skeletal muscle fibres are not alike in structure or function. For example, skeletal muscle fibres vary in colour depending on their content of myoglobin (myoglobin stores oxygen until needed by the mitochondria). Skeletal muscle fibres contract with different velocities, depending on their ability to split Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP). Faster contracting fibres have greater ability to split ATP. In addition, skeletal muscle fibres vary with respect to the metabolic processes they use to generate ATP. They also differ in terms of the onset of fatigue. Based on various structural and functional characteristics, skeletal muscle fibres are classified into three types: Type I fibres, Type II B fibres and type II A fibres.

Myoglobin & Mitochondria
Myoglobin is a protein and has oxygen bound to it, thus providing an extra reserve of oxygen so that the muscle can maintain a high level of activity for a longer period of time.

Mitochondria are known as the powerhouses of the cell. They act like a digestive system that takes in nutrients, breaks them down, and creates energy for the cell.

Type I Fibres
These fibres, also called slow twitch or slow oxidative fibres, contain large amounts of myoglobin, many mitochondria and many blood capillaries. Type I fibres are red, split ATP at a slow rate, have a slow contraction velocity, very resistant to fatigue and have a high capacity to generate ATP by oxidative metabolic processes. Such fibres are found in large numbers in the postural muscles of the neck.

Type II A Fibres
These fibres, also called fast twitch or fast oxidative fibres, contain very large amounts of myoglobin, very many mitochondria and very many blood capillaries. Type II A fibres are red, have a very high capacity for generating ATP by oxidative metabolic processes, split ATP at a very rapid rate, have a fast contraction velocity and are resistant to fatigue. Such fibres are infrequently found in humans.

Type II B Fibres
These fibres, also called fast twitch or fast glycolytic fibres, contain a low content of myoglobin, relatively few mitochondria, relatively few blood capillaries and large amounts glycogen. Type II B fibres are white, geared to generate ATP by anaerobic metabolic processes, not able to supply skeletal muscle fibres continuously with sufficient ATP, fatigue easily, split ATP at a fast rate and have a fast contraction velocity. Such fibres are found in large numbers in the muscles of the arms.

Second you need to control how those muscle fibers are operated. This is controlled by the motor cortex. A programmable part of your brain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_cortex

and finally nutrition. The correct nutruition will provide the fuel from the operation of the muscles.

You get all there three perfect for your desired activity, it's game on.

The Bear.

 

I think one of the problems with some people who are gym trained is that a lot of isolated body part training takes place. These people will often become bigger in some places, but can't necessarily apply their strength in an integrated and holistic way.

this blog post here highlights this sort of issue. "looks in shape, but inside".. 17th March, about two thirds down the page.

http://formosafitness.pixnet.net/blog

 

I disagree with the second half of this. Technique is important in weightlifting because it will maximize results and reduce the chance of becoming injured.


Also I think the OP seems to be confusing strength with sport specific strength.

 

This month I broke a personal best record by performing a double with 865 lbs. in a full squat. A week from Saturday, I will be competing in the super-heavyweight expert class at the NAGA World Chamionships in Submission Grappling at the age of 45 (hopefully one of the younger guys won't take either my arm or leg home as a trophy). Most of what was said about the anatomy and physiology so far was accurate.

The comments about bodybuilders being slow and weak were way off base. Tom Platz (who had the greatest leg devlopment in BB history) used to do full splits and could squat 500 lbs for well over 20 reps (while my leg development isn't quite what Tom's was, I can do both as well). Properly used, weight training and increasing your lean muscle mass will enhance not only your strength, but your speed as well. Skill and training will make the most effective use of what you have to work with. Your conditioning (muscular strength, muscular endurance, cardio endurance, flexibility, ect) will give you more for your skill to work with. My hope is that the combo of the two, will be a winning one.

 

Lean and fatty muscle is a misnomer. Google myofibriliar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

 

I think we are also forgeting flexibility, endurance, and leverage

 

Slow twitch muscle mass is slow, fast twitch muscle is fast.
There are planty of body builders who can do the splits, plenty of sumo wrestlers too.
Do you claim because i do squats as part of my reg training my kicks will become slower?

There is also the issue of how the muscles got to become so developed.
Say two guys both have huge bi’s, one developed them by using fitness machines and doing preacher curls, the other doesn’t work his bi’s in isolation only in a selection of compound exercises like chins DB rows etc, it stands to reason the second will have more *useful* strength

*Sport applicable

 

Listen, guys, I don't know if anyone's explained this to you, but you only get to make fun of bodybuilders if you can lift more than they can. The people who tell jokes about bodybuilders on T-nation are powerlifters, often elite powerlifters. They can quite reasonably make fun of people more focussed on appearance than they are. But some little squirt whining about how bodybuilders are all weak is just pathetic.

 

There's a lot of truth to this. If a person has great balance and what some people call "rootedness", it's going to seem impossible to move him. This is how a mid-kyu Judoka may be able to execute a throw brilliantly against a fellow mid-kyu but when he tries against a dan grade Judoka his opponent just seems glued to the floor. It's a combination of balance, posture, gripping the floor, and skill. Add in muscular strength and proper breathing and you get someone who's a strong guy.

Being into weight training as well as karate, it's easy to see how well the two correlate with each other. If you're squatting, try one rep without paying any attention to your feet and then the next rep lightly grip the ground with your toes during the rep. You'll notice a difference. Same with if you're doing say a bench press. Proper breath control will make a noticeable difference compared to improper breath control, and will allow you to be stronger in that way.

There's a lot more to strength than how much you can lift. That's why you'll see in strongman competitions it's not always the strongest guy that wins the events, it's the guy who can APPLY his strength the best that wins.

 

http://www.ecrossfit.com/home/sprinter.jpg

hes not exacty skinny is he?