Where did everyone go?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Gajah Silat, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    No need to apologise....it's just that I know how these 'discussions' can spiral out of control!

    I think this part of the greater problem. As you say the term Indonesian in a way can be misleading. Especialy so to Western martial artists who don't happen to be cultural anthropologists......that'll be nearly all I expect ;) . After all Indonesia is perhaps the most culturally diverse country on earth.

    This can be a major problem for anyone who has had a number of Indonesian teachers. A term may be Minang, Batak, Bawean, Maduran, Javanese, Dutch Indo.................etc. So with different teachers comes a hotch potch of cultural terms and titles. As far as the student is aware they are all right.....because they were told so by an Indonesian.

    So it's inevitable that terms and titles that are appropriate within one culture may be deemed inappropriate in another. I'm suprised that there are not more cross cultural misunderstandings, and this is based on my own cultural mishaps :confused: :D
  2. Takedown 2

    Takedown 2 New Member

    Gajah, thank you for making my point better than I did! LOL!!

    Let me also add this, if I have offended anyone in anyway, I apologize in advance. That is not my intent. I'm simply attempting to offer explanations as I see them, for some of the questions that I've seen raised.

    As I've said online before, all of us who are apart of Pendekar Sanders's orginization are normal, sane, rational, good hearted people. We're certainly not perfect, and all we want to do is do our Silat and share it with like-minded people of good will.

    We just opened a new school in suburban Detroit, Michigan. If anyone would like more information, the website is www.cimande.net. You can also post any questions, email me here, call us on the telephone, or simply come by the new school.

  3. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    On the contrary I believe we're refering to general stats ... Sahabat Silat statistics on all posts are 111 silat posts over the last seven days from the 8th October. I believe you're conflating the stats for the "Cimande ..." thread, however the reference was to the entire silat form. :rolleyes: And don't forget that it's over the Lebaran period as well ... always a slow time.

    From my personal perspective, and not being part of any "organised" group seeking to discredit Sanders, I have some issues with the Mama Sukarma videos, and it is natural that people will seek to investigate first.

    I and others distrust Sanders version of authenticity hugely. I have however never doubted that his "silat" is authentic as Sanders silat ... and there is absolutely no shame in that.

    There is also no dispute that Sanders silat might be largely influenced by Cimande Eka Jaya ... and as such can be seen as a branch of Cimande, no problem there, but is it Cimande Pusaka? Well you see, therein lies the nub of the problem.

    I don't know how to make it any clearer than that ... but I suspect you'll misunderstand that too.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2007
  4. Takedown 2

    Takedown 2 New Member

    Krisno, you're right, I was confusing your intention of speaking to the total number of posts as opposed to the number of posts regarding my teacher. Sometimes I forget that the world doesn’t revolve around me and that not every post is written around what’s going on inside my head. :) :)

    Also, I understand what it is that you are saying about Cimande Pusaka. I disagree with you, but your meaning is clear to me. I’ll reiterate in my own words so that we can be sure I correctly understand. I will probably add in a few things that you said from Sahabatsilat. If I misquote or attribute to you something that you didn’t say, please let me know. So much has been said that, frankly, my head is spinning!

    So here goes….

    Basically, this issue lies in the name of William Sanders’s Silat. You are saying that it should correctly be called Sanders Silat or maybe even Cimande Sanders. Further, you are saying that to call it Pukulan Cimande Pusaka implies that its practitioners (and of course its head, William Sanders) have inherited the Pusaka of Cimande. You continue that this is inaccurate because the Silat that we do is not only not pure Cimande, but that we don’t represent it properly and that no one person or group can inherit the Pusaka of all of Cimande.

    Is that more or less correct? I hope so because my response is based upon it!

    For my response, I will begin by deferring to the words of my teacher, Pendekar William Sanders (I will touch on why I defer to him in bit). at www.cimande.com/Q-A.html he states the following:

    “…Pusaka…means to us, and our students and lineage holders what we do has been passed on now to a few generations and will continue to be. It is our Pusaka, our family heirloom as my keris that I leave for my family is my keris Pusaka…

    I also want to point out it was Pendekar Jafri an Indonesian Representative of the IPSI to the USA who suggested and approved my use of the word Pusaka for the aforementioned reasons and of late it also reflects the full Cimande of Pendekar Mama which we practice and which was also known by Mas Jud. It is termed Cimande Pusaka so it gives honor to that part of our lineage….

    Note we don’t say our name is Cimande alone. With all due respect to the great art of Cimande, what we do is the art Mas Jud practiced which includes the entire Cimande curriculum plus the other aspects including the Tiger, Monkey, Crane, the highly guarded Snake portion, Sera and some Cikalong. Mas Jud himself called his art at times, "Cimande", but that was not popular for him as it contained also the aforementioned other components. At times he simply called it Cimande Combinasi or Sera Combinasi.

    I am the head of Pukulan Cimande Pusaka as it is my system of Cimande and I can’t make that any more clear, even though some will keep saying what you do does not always look just like standard Cimande. It does not and we like the way it looks, fights and moves. “

    Basically, what he is saying is that the Pusaka is between him and his students. He is also saying that use of the word Pusaka was approved not just by an Indonesian or a widely known Pencak Silat Pendekar, but that it was also approved by a Pendekar who was a representative of the IPSI. Again… the Pusaka is between him and his students.

    The skeptic might say, “Well that’s all fine and dandy Mike, but I don’t believe William Sanders. I don’t believe him when he says his use of the word Pusaka was approved by a recognized Indonesian Pendekar who was a representative of the IPSI.” The skeptic might also say, “Interesting Mike, but his use of the word ‘Pusaka’ is inaccurate and offensive.”

    To that, I come back to what I wrote on Sahabatsilat on August 19th under the handle ‘Cimande Fan.’ The gist of what I said is that because I know Pendekar William Sanders personally, and because I know that he’s a decent, honest, caring person with a good heart, I take what he says at face value. This is why I deferred to him in the beginning of the above paragraph. I know he is an honest person, so therefore I trust what he tells me. All the certificates, pictures and videos are simply window dressing. If he had none of them, I’d still trust him because I know he’s a good person.

    To further illustrate, when he says Pendekar Jafri told him it’s ok to call his art Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, I believe him. When he says that during all his visits to Indonesia, he wore his Pukulan Cimande Pusaka shirt and nobody had a problem with it, I believe him. When he says that his Indonesian friends and teachers (people like Pendekars Jafri, Sartono, Sirait, and Mama) all think its fine that his art is called Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, I believe him. Even without the videos or Pendekar Mama and company declaring that William Sanders has been training with them for last few years, I believe him!!

    If you and others take issue with our understanding and use of the word Pusaka, that's fine. But isn't it true that there are Indonesians who agree with our interpertation?

    As I’ve stated before, I’ve never been to Indonesia (point of clarification, on my Sahabatsilat post, I listed all the places I’ve traveled to solely to point out that because I’ve seen a lot of this world, I know a phony when I see one and Pendekar William Sanders is not a phony!). But even without having ever been there, I know that because Pendekar Sanders is a kind, honest and forthright person, what he teaches us, and what he tells us about his history and who his teachers are, is 100% accurate. Bascially, because I know the character of the man, I trust the man.

    Now, if someone chooses to start from a place of skepticism, and it’s safe to say this describes you Krisno, then it logically follows that you’ll question things about him and what he says. Because I start from a place that says Pendekar Sanders is an honest, generous person with a good heart, it logically follows that I trust him. And this goes back to what I said before on Sahabatsilat when I touched upon the differences of knowing the man or not knowing the man. Indeed, our very own Nick of the AOPSA recently wrote me that once he got to know William Sanders a bit, he began to understand that he is a very nice man who he believes is pure at heart. Nick says that he doesn’t agree with everything Sanders says, but that he is a brother in Pencak Silat. I’m 1,000% fine that.

    It’s easy for anyone to fall into the error of confirmation bias (For the readers that don’t know what confirmation bias is I’ll explain....confirmation bias is one of six major errors of critical thinking that people commonly make. It’s characterized by the tendency to interpret information in a way that proves your perceptions). And to be honest Krisno, when it comes to the subject of my teacher and his Silat I don’t feel I’m making this error. However, I do think that you might be. That said, I have to admit that I definitely made the error of confirmation bias while reading your posts. Coming from a place where the walls were up higher than my guard was, my first reading of your posts left me very angry and feeling that you were a person of bad intent. But after coming to terms with my humanness and making a concerted effort to read your words with eyes that tried their best to avoid confirmation bias, your discourse demonstrates to me that you are an accomplished, intelligent man who I believe let his emotions get the better of him in the heat of the moment with some of your harsher words.

    Please please please read this knowing that I intend no malice. With this post, I'm offering the hand of understanding. Maybe someday it will lead to the hand of friendship. I realize that I was somewhat confrontational in my recent posts and I apologize for it. I let my better judgment get away from me. My hope is that we can learn from each other in a mutually constructive manner and agree to disagree.

    And lastly at Gajah. I apologize for continuing the Sanders discussion on your thread. :D I’d be happy to discuss this elsewhere (even in private email) with anyone at all.

    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  5. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    LOL Michael, threads develop and this old chestnut keeps getting resurected in many forms.

    I would however, urge anyone who partakes in this discussion to keep it respectful, factual and to avoid personal issues. Also, try to avoid dragging out old quotes that were perhaps written in the heat of the moment. This will re-ignite any personal issues....let them pass.

    However, regarding the long standing 'pusaka' issue, I will say this.

    I perfectly understand what both sides are saying. Both points are perhaps valid explanations depending on how you choose to interpret the term. The issue has become largely academic and down to semantics.

    Maybe both sides are correct! Maybe both sides will never agree with regard to terminology. Maybe the acceptability of the term varies with region, culture and belief system.

    I must say that, I don't believe that anyone would deliberately use a particular term to name their art just to cause offence.

    I don't know, but surely we can't have this constant circular arguement for all eternity :rolleyes:

    I also doubt that anyone would prove to be evil, malicious, manipulative or whatever else gets so freely banded around, in real life. I'm sure we are all pretty decent human beings at heart.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2007
  6. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Michael, first of all I'd like to make the observation that you are a scholar and a gentleman. Thank you for the erudite and thoughtful response, and I too apologise for any hurtfull words I may have expressed in the past.

    Your analysis of my perspective is entirely correct as well. Were a qualifier to be added such as Cimande Pusaka Sanders or Sukarma or Eka Jaya etc., it would underpin what Mr. Sanders has said by way of his explanation. Anyway, it's just a thought.

    Thank you again, and thank you too Om Gajah for you insightful perspectives.

    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  7. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    I like Kembang Alas suggestion of adding Sanders name to the title of his art. I see it as the only way these wars can be finally stopped. He can retain the word Pusaka ( I dont think anyone has a problem with that)but by adding his name it makes it clear that it’s his Pusaka (what was passed to him) this will resolve all the fighting.

    The solution is so easy, good thinking Kembang Alas ;)
  8. Takedown 2

    Takedown 2 New Member

    I want to begin this thread by saying something that I had forgotten to say before; I am not the spokesmen for Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. I am simply a student of Pendekar William Sanders who has been studying Silat under him, on and off, since 1996. What I say in this forum are my own words and are not necessarily endorsed by anyone in our organization besides me. I may have a date or a name a little bit off, but the gist of what I'm saying is more or less correct.

    That said...

    Krisno, thank you very much for your kind and thoughtful response. I love to think of myself as a scholar and a gentlemen, but seeing as how I had to look up the word ‘erudite,’ I’m not sure how much of a scholar I truly am (note to self… the root of ‘erudite’ is similar to that of the French verb ‘etudier’ which means ‘to study’). :)

    And Gajah, thank you for your words as well. What you said regarding the ‘Pusaka’ question I think is fair. I’m fine with acknowledging that there are different ways of interpreting the use of that word. As we’ve agreed before, Indonesia is a very large country with a very diverse population. It's easy to see that words don't have a universally unwavering meaning. Until reading the posts on this site and on Sahabatsilat, I was unaware that some people had a problem with how we used the word. I’m more than willing to find middle ground and recognize the validity of our skeptics' interpretation of the word if they are willing to recognize ours (again, our interpretation being that the Pusaka is between Sanders and his students).

    To Narrue, thank you for contributing positively to this discussion. I resoundingly condone your tone of reconciliation. However, to be short and to the point, I don’t think it’s realistic that the name of our style will be changed. Here’s why; Pendekar Sanders was authorized to call his Silat Pukulan Cimande Pusaka by Indonesians while he was in Indonesia in the mid 1980s. Prior to that time, his style was called Pukulan Cimande, after what he had learned from Guru Willy Wetzel (a Dutch Indonesian) via Guru John Malterer (his 1st Silat teacher who was also Sanders's only non-Indo. teacher). It was only after he began his trips to Indonesia in 1983 with Pendekar Jafri that he was awarded the title of Pendekar. This was also the time frame when he was told that he should add the word Pusaka after Pukulan Cimande.

    Fast forward to the present day, and we have a group of online people who have expressed to us that we shouldn't call our Silat Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. Now bear in mind that for the better part of twenty years, nobody has ever said word one about the name of our Silat. Not over the Internet, not in person, not over the telephone or via fax, and certainly not when Pendekar Sanders or any of his students have made their literally dozens of trips to Indonesia . So to quell the recent voices of some online people we are asked to change the name of our Silat? A name that we’ve had for 20 years and was endorsed by Indonesians? Honestly Narrue, it's not likely to happen. But thank you again for your sentiment. :)

    If anyone reading this has any questions at all, or would like futher clarification about anything regarding Pukulan Cimande Pusaka, please feel free to contact me on this site, via email, via telephone or stop by our new King Tiger school in Hazel Park, MI. I'm happy to make the time for any inquiry.

    Last edited: Oct 23, 2007
  9. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Your post, with reference to my agreement with what Kambang alas suggested was based upon the argument as to why the word Pusaka should be dropped.
    I did not suggest it should be removed, as I stated I don’t think anyone, including Indonesians care if you use the word Pusaka.

    Pukulan Cimande Pusaka Sanders would be more correct then Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

    In other words the suggestion was not that you takeaway something but that you add something to acknowledge who the Pusaka belongs to.
    Every Pusaka belongs to someone or some family so why not make it clear who it belongs to….just a suggestion :)

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