Where did everyone go?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Gajah Silat, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. Swalesey

    Swalesey New Member

    I to being new to the map forum, was surprised to see that there can be whole days with no postings in the silat forum. Is it as you say, that people have been driven away?

    As for people stopping doing Silat due to it's reputation, then that's a shame. I honestly didn't know Silat had that reputation, but it certainly wouldn't stop me training twice a week. Untill I started using this forum I had no idea that the different systems bickered so much between themselves, or at least certain people within those systems. I have never heard any comments like that about other schools or systems from anyone I have encountered through the Silat.

    Could it be that it is something there is a lot less of in Britain?

    As for the opening post, maybe the people with less bile should make an effort to post more threads and spread a little good karma about the place :)
  2. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    I told my secretary I'm not taking any calls...

    Hi everybody. A student of mine informed me that I was mentioned on this thread a few times, and after reading the inquiries I decided to say one last thing.

    In most cases, I have appreciated the learned discourse between Silat practitioners here. There have been some bad seeds, but you could say that about any forum. However, I wanted to say that my own personal reasons for recently abandoning EVERY board I used to frequent is mostly the signal-to-noise ratio. In a public forum such as this one you can't be selective of your company, nor can you express the intent behind your words as well as a face-to-face discussion. As to the Islamic phobia, I honestly don't think that's the case. I think that different practitioners of the same art have crossed over from understandable pride in their Silat to stylistic one-upmanship. Throw in some heavy nationalistic pride on BOTH fronts, and you have a catastrophe looking for an outlet. It's so easy to say things in anger over the web, easier to destroy a chance at bridging the gap between cultures than create a friendship.

    But it would be nice to come around one day and see that all this led to something better for the future generations.

    Thank you, Gajah. I have enjoyed speaking with you as well. And by the way, your Rendang recipe was MAGNIFICENT! If you ever find yourself in Seattle, please stop by for some curry and Pencak Silat.

    The same goes for all of you as well. I also have quite a collection of Belgian Ales, which are a gift from God if ever there was one.
  3. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Hey Bobbe!

    How about your recipe for the Dutch thousand-layered cake?
  4. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Hi Bobby

    One of my senior guys is moving to seattle in Feb to live, so if its ok maybe I can get him to meet up with you.

  5. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    All our cultural differences aside, human to human, you are showing great heart Bobbe ...

  6. Pekir

    Pekir Valued Member

    Dutch Thousand-layered cake??? I have never heard of this? Do you mean Spekkoek? I only know it as a Indonesian cake not a Dutch actually, don't know a Indonesian name though.

  7. SundaWarrior

    SundaWarrior Valued Member

    Salam Mas Liam,

    Things will change. The problem only lies with those who are not in search of brotherhood and truth. Pencak Silat is an art that can only be spread through becoming a family. Many positive changes will come about if certain Silat teachers take the focus off themselves and just promote the art for what it is. I am "not" referring to your teacher. The teachers I am referring to know who they are. There should be no fighting amongst styles of Pencak Silat. We should all be proud "together" of the art we have been given to pass on. We are all Pencak Silat players and as such we have the responsibility to keep our family together. Sorry if that seemed like a political speech but I believe it needed to be said.

  8. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Well, I think I had some of that in Amsterdam once, went to the Melkweg and missed the bus home ;)

    Glad you enjoyed it :) but you need to thank my wife, although I know all the recipes by heart :) I will PM my all time favourite 'gule kambing' at some point. If you can't find goat, use mutton, if not lamb will do!

    And likewise if you are ever in the UK feel free to stay & have some good home cooked curries!

    Of course Belgian beers, a man after my own heart Duvel, Chimay, Lambic, Leffe......however you guys in the states are denied our fine British ales too.

    Nick, perhaps the internet silence of late could be some well placed reflection. I hope so and the timing would be very apt too!

    Obviously, the medium of the internet is partially to blame too. This has allready been touched upon. It is easy to just write. There are no social or even personal parameters that in the real face to face world would prevent many of these virtual situations.

    And of course there may be more than a few cross cultural missinterpretations.

    I have to admit that there is a curious thing I have noticed with many Indonesians, and sometimes it confuses us bule bule.

    That is an ability to 'punctuate' total politeness with abject bluntness :confused: No offence intended :D

    And finally, Liam. Sometimes I have really felt for you guys! After all going against the odds and putting the time and effort into doing the 'minority art', which let's face it in Ireland that is about as minority as you get.

    For what it's worth, I really must stress the silat was never in question.

    I feel that Bram's intentions were well meant originally, but you two guys clashed...umm well that's probably an understatement. Bram is certainly a fountain of Indonesian Knowledge and has in depth knowledge of all things Jawan. Credit where credit is due, but maybe he took offence too easily and should of held back at times. I always took it as part of his character, and we're all characters aren't we. Maybe we all could/should have :Angel:

    As for Krisno, I've always 'liked' him too. I think it is unfair to refer to 'the brothers'. Krisno has always come across as fair and balanced. Mostly not given to reactionary comments.

    And lastly, don't forget we are all fallible and human.

    Selamat lebaran semua :D
  9. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Selamat Lebaran - Hari Raya Idul Fitri

    Matur nuwun Mas Martin, sama x2 juga lho!

    Selamat Lebaran everyone too, if I have caused anyone wrongful injury through my actions I ask for forgiveness of body and spirit ... ma'af lahir bathin.
  10. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Hi gajah

    I agree with you, the internet is a terrible medium for communications add different cultures and expressions form the 4 corners of the world, and it doesnt take long before things go bad.

    I think with Bram it was the direct attack on my teacher name and style, that really started the whole row. People forget sometimes there is a person behind the name, and I know talking with my teacher, how badly the lies that were thrown around about him affected him. This was the reason I stood up for him. There has been times where I have disagree with my teacher, but we have always been able to talk, discuss and either come to agreement or understand each other views. There are many expressions and customs which are different from Americans and western europeans which to each other can be strange. But I always found speaking directly not via emails is a the quickest way to overcome any problems. I know at the minute he is finding it very strange that even though now he has produce proof to back up all his claims to prove wrong the lies that were made, they wasn't even a single retractions.

    For me personally I find all this so very distracting, I sometimes think that back in the 80's withouit mobile phones, internet it was so much easier to practise your art and enjoy doing it.

    Have you heard anymore about Jak Othman, for what I make out he teaching thai boxing in K.L. I was just looking the other day at a video of his seminar way back in 01, but he seems to off the silat radar these days.

    All the best.
  11. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Hi Liam,

    Yes, I think a lot of the issues were indeed cultural and as you say there is also a cultural void between Europeans and Americans. In fact a friend of mine who had travelled extensively in the US once told me this. "Don't expect Americans to be the same just because we speak the same language. If you ever visit, treat it as an alien culture and you'll understand it better" :)

    In the discussions, the gap between US and Indonesian perspectives is sometimes very wide, sometimes not. However, this means there is always the potential for a lot of missunderstanding and offence can be taken.

    Perhaps, in the long term, all of this brought everything into the open and may even lead to a resolution. Give it time :)

    As for Guru Jak, he's proving very elusive! It seems that he's gone completely off the silat radar. However, I got an email from someone in KL saying something like this.

    "Guru Jak is still teaching small silat classes in KL. Mauy Thai is his business but silat is his heritage"

    Perhaps that is the best way for silat. Small classes and a little off the radar ;) :)
  12. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    This is funny, a talk about why people are not talking haha LOL

    I would not read into it too much, people have various and diverse reasons, it’s a kind of a chain reaction process. I don’t believe people have been driven off and have flocked to greener pastures to graze….I looked at the other Web site mentioned and its not exactly buzzing either!
    I don’t think Muslim issues have caused people to depart, people are not that weak in general.

    There is a time for everything, turn, turn,turn

    :D :D LOL
  13. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    It might depend on who you identify with ...

    To the contrary. The Indonesian version Sahabat Silat as well as Silat Bogor mailing list is humming along nicely.
  14. pakehraja

    pakehraja Valued Member

    I visit this forum once a while. I admit I learn quite a lot about silat from this Forum, which suits me well as an armchair pesilat. the reason I have not been posting is obviously that I don't know much. I think what I enjoy the most is the breadth of perspective offered in this forum. I don't know that off late a few participants have been quite or migrate to other list, but if this is true, then I feel it's a lost to many. Because for me, no matter how heated a debate is, there's always something for me to learn.

    Still not too late to wish selamat hari Lebaran to all, or as we in Malaysia say it, selamat hari Raya..
  15. Takedown 2

    Takedown 2 New Member

    Since Pendekar Sanders posted the vids on his website from Pendekar Mama, in the last 7 days, there have only been 12 posts. And 3 of them came from you Mas Krisno. I couldn't find the Silat Bogor mailing list, so I'm not sure how many are on there.
  16. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Hi Takedown

    Thats true, the only time that the forum was busy was the time of the slandering of Pendekar Sanders and our style. Now that there nothing more that can be made up about him, the forum has basicly dried up. I saw some of the private posts that went around during that 4 - 6 weeks madness, and it wasn't pretty.

    I was talking to Pendekar Sanders at the weekend and he has some more video clips to add, with Pendekar Mama explaining and supporting him even more. It's sad that the sahabatsilat forum has gone so quite now. I think people rather spend more time causing hate and division than actually trying to work together for the general good.

    I think also there probably only a handful of people on the silat forums in all reality, and over the past couple of years, there has been several very long internal wars going on, with the end result, many left the forums or no longer posts. People dont want to start another row. Since many of the styles have so little in common than there very little chance of people talking together, without a row. For me personally I feel very isolated as there is only a handful of clubs in this part of the world, but for such few clubs, there is no actually getting together and general promotion of what we do either through Instructors ego's, club politics, or a whole hosts of different reasons on all sides. Which is really sad as for a Martial Art which has so much to offer, it cant get out of the school playground.
  17. Takedown 2

    Takedown 2 New Member

    Hello Silatliam, I can't read Indonesian but with the use of an online dictionary, I think the next thing they are going to say against Pendekar Sanders is that he's only been training in Silat for 3 years. Pendekar Mama states in his address that Pendekar Sanders has been training with him for 3 years. I think the haters of Pendekar Sanders will now say, "what about the rest of the time?" The answer is simple, he's had many different teachers over the years, just like almost every other devoted martial artist. If you read Pendekar Sanders website (or simply ask him), he can detail all of his other Silat teachers. They range from Pendekars Sartono, Jaffri and Siriat to Guru Malterer and even to the Kali player Leo Gahje.

    Well see what's next after their "secret investigation!"
  18. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Firstly, the point of my original post was really more of a 'where are they now' post, just out of curiousity!

    I did not mean to re-ignite the whole Sanders debate :rolleyes:

    But as it's become unavoidable yet again.......for what it's worth, I don't think the actual silat has ever been in question. The contentions were based around lineage, terminology and some, what were termed 'bombastic' claims.

    Now as someone who has spent a lot of time in Indonesia, I could see how some (but by no means all) Indonesians could take offence. This is nothing to do with 'taking sides' but a simple observation.

    However, something I could never understand was the whole 'Pendeker Mama' scenario. If there was that much contention why did someone not just get on the bus and ask in the village :confused:

    Anyway, there is no point going over and over old ground. It does nothing but give both Westerners and Indonesians false and distorted views of each other.
  19. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

  20. Takedown 2

    Takedown 2 New Member

    Gajah, you are correct and I apologize for contributing to the continuation of the Pendekar Sanders 'argument.' The questions about lineage will eventually be answered to even the harshest critics satisfaction. My point of view as to why Pendekar Sanders' critics simply don't go knock on Pendekar Mama's door is that their goal isn't to get to the truth, rather, it's to slander him out of a personal vendetta based in pride.

    As far as the questions of terminology are concerned, I feel they are without merit. The Indonesian terminology/titles that we use were given to us by Indonesians. The sheer size and diversity of Indonesia combined with the range of different languages and dialects can easily result in different meanings/interpretations. Again, the terminology that we use was given to us by Indonesians so if there's an issue or question, take it up with them!

    Lastly, the 'bombastic' claims, in my opinion, are where you have us at our worst. If it were up to me, I wouldn't make such claims. But then... I haven’t had my good name and reputation repeatedly slandered, laughed at, challenged, sneered over, criticized, backstabbed, defamed, smeared, slimed and misrepresented over the last two decades. If that had been the case, I would probably have responded much worse. The reason Pendekar Sanders says those things is because 1) He's reacting to being unrelentingly attacked over multiple years, and 2) because he believes them to be correct.

    Michael Fishman

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