When to fight and when not to fight?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Humble Guy, Oct 27, 2004.

  1. Humble Guy

    Humble Guy New Member

    I've been wondering about an old MA story I read once.

    It was about a Kung Fu master walking with his students along a path at night when suddenly they were attacked, the students were about to defend themselves when the Kung Fu master told them not to, they could have beaten their attackers but the Master told the students not to fight where ever possible. They handed over their money and the attackers went away.
    The Master and students avoided conflict by giving the attackers what they wanted.

    I'm not sure I agree with what the Master did.

    I put this in the Philosophy section because I wanted to ask about Martial Arts in the 21st Century, or any Century.

    I think walking away from a fight is a good thing, but where do we draw the line? Where should we draw the line?

    If a man grabbed you and tried to take your wallet and mobile, as a Martial Artist you may be able to deal with him, you may not. But do you owe it to yourself and society to try and stop him?

    Like the Master in my story, if you give the mugger what he wants or if you ran away from the mugging, what is stopping the mugger from doing it to someone else? Someone you know? A friend, a loved one, a family memeber or a complete stranger.

    If we train ourselves mentally and physically for conflict, should we not put our skills and training to use?

    Many people say the bravest thing to do is walk away,

    but how would you feel if you saw a stranger being mugged?
    how would you feel if you saw a friend being mugged?

    Why discriminate? If someone is in trouble, friend or not, is it not our duty to try and help someone who is in trouble?

    Should we use our knowledge to help people where ever possible?

    Or should we avoid conflict at all costs? Because fighting is wrong?

    Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

    -Mike.

    In my own experience, the period of greatest gain in knowledge and
    experience is the most difficult period in one's life. ...Through a
    difficult period, you can learn, you can develop inner strength,
    determination, and courage to face the problem. Who gives you this chance?
    Your enemy.
    -His Holiness the Dalai Lama
     
  2. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    I disagree with what the Master did. He let go of someone who did something evil and wrong. . . . I believe in handing out justice where it is needed.

    Avoid all fights possible - What did the Master mean? What did he see in giving the attacker the money? All it would do is raise the ego of the attacker, and one day he'll probably end up huring innocent people who CAN'
    T defend against him.

    I believe that the Master is being a pacifist. . . . I don't believe in pacifism. I believe in trying to avoid confrontation unless you are doing something to defend other innocents.
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The story is, I suspect, apochryphal. The point it is illustrating is that if another means of resolution presents itself then do not resort to combat. Possessions can be replaced and in the grand scheme are essentially worthless.

    Or, as Dan Inosanto once put it; "If it's worth fighting for, it's worth dying for...and there ain't a lot worth dying for"

    Personally you want my wallet, you leave in a box (or handcuffs if on duty of course!)
     
  4. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    i also disagree with what the master did. the way i see it is, why the hell should we just hand over our belongings to criminals, and let them just rampage around doing whatever they want?
     
  5. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    depends on risk factor. if they were positive they would win and the other guys had no weapons then yes, they should have beat them down. if someone came at me with a knife and asked for my wallet, I would give it to him. theres a line between bravery and stupidity.
     
  6. GojuKJoe

    GojuKJoe Valued Member

    yeah, i agree completely
     
  7. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Using the law is a good guideline- You are entitled to use force to protect yourself and others. In addition, you are entitled to use reasonable force to prevent a crime from taking place. It follows that, if you are able to, you should.
     
  8. chapskins

    chapskins New Member

    Would hope that one day i could be of the same mind of that of the Master :)
     
  9. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    Why? Give your money to criminals, so they can futher hurt more people???

    In the case with the Master, I would see myself as the deliverance of fate - karma, upon the criminal for being unjust.
     
  10. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    As Ikken says there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. If you can't beat the assailant then why bother fighting? Unless you are willing to risk death for whatever ammount of cash you are carrying then fighting should be a last resort.

    If you can beat the assailant however, I'd personally favor knocking him senseless, then dragging him to the job centre, giving him the cash contents of my wallet anyway and telling him to sort his life out and get a god-damn job!
     
  11. zenmonk

    zenmonk Valued Member

    That's a very good kunfutse story and it's good to think about it for a while.

    Are you training yourself for a conflict or for to avoid conflict?

    Does justice mean beating the other?

    Why? Because they can?

    In the story there was no this kind of accident. In my suggestion when your friend (or stranger) is getting mugged it is your duty to act. Acting doesn't necessarily mean attacking the other - but it can mean loud shouts or threats towards the muggers but... even then the physical contact is the last resolt.

    For some reason an another old story came to my mind:

    Ryokan, a Zen master, lived the simplest kind of life in a little hut at the foot of a mountain. One evening a thief visited the hut only to discover there was nothing to steal.

    Ryokan returned and caught him. "You have come a long way to visit me," he told the prowler, "and you should not return empty-handed. Please take my clothes as a gift."

    The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away.

    Ryoken sat naked, watching the moon. "Poor fellow," he mused, "I wish I could have given him this beautiful moon."


    P.S. Humble Guy: Where did you see your MA story? If you could provide links I would be happy to read more of those.
     
  12. Humble Guy

    Humble Guy New Member

    Hi everyone.

    Thankyou all for your replies and input. I'm new to this forum and find it very refreshing to meet like-minded people.

    I think it was in one of my Peter Lewis books, although I can't find the particular story!

    Oh well, I'll just have to read them again, no bad thing! :)
     
  13. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    How idealistic it is. I strongly dislike violence and conflict. I have never truly had to use my martial arts training in a hand to hand combat situation - thankfully.

    To answer the question at hand, there are a lot of variable to consider such as does the criminal have a weapon and what is their aproach. Honestly, I would most likely give them my wallet and then pummel them intot he earth. I am not a rich noble that should take pitty on robin hood. I am just an ordinary man that works hard to get by. I also think of my wife and other people I care about and that this criminal would obviously have no issue with going after them if he comes after a 6'3" tall man. One thing to consider from this story though - how could you have avoided this situation? If you were walking down an alleyway at night you are more likely to have this issue - correct? We all hold some responsibility.
     
  14. Sandus

    Sandus Moved Himself On

    This thread reminds me of the origin of Spiderman. (Yeah, I'm a dork). Though not necessarily the same, it does have a similar point. For those of you not familiar with the story, this guy gets robbed and Peter Parker doesn't stop him because he believes it isn't his responsibility (and the thief poses no immediate threat to him). Later on he finds out that this thief killed his uncle during his escape, not long after Peter had let him go.

    The point is, are those capable of preventing future misdeeds/violence through the use of violence obligated to do so? Stan Lee thinks so. For some reason the master in this story does not.

    It's a question of self vs. community. Do I owe society anything because I am a capable martial artist? Or do I owe it to myself to avoid conflict because the principles of my art teach it?

    It's a good question.
     
  15. HearWa

    HearWa Ow, that hurt...

    You'd have to have come to understand, practice and experience the positive aspects of Buddhism to get the logic in behind zenmonk's post.

    I'm changing an old Buddhist axiom for this situation (that is, "Talk if it will increase the peace, be silent in it will not.") Since talking is basically an action this apply's to fighting as well.

    Fight if it will increase the peace, be silent if it will not. I'd advise a good foundation of mindfulness, equanimity and metta to accompany this belief... as some people think it's idealistic...
     
  16. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    I believe in an Eye for an Eye.

    That is one of the principles I stand by.

    If you disagree, so be it. I am NOT a pacifist, nor will I ever be.

    I respect all of the Zen ideologies and such, but to me, they are extremely impractical in the 21st Century, and even more so against those who are willing to cause harm to others.
     
  17. Judge

    Judge Valued Member

    I have a little rule i go by the "2 strike rule."

    The first time someone attempts to start a fight with me in any way ill ride off and ignore
    The Second time someone attempts to start a fight with me, we'll that person will feel sorry for themselves later.

    Their are a few exceptions to this however, like the "attempt" being an actual hit.
     
  18. zenmonk

    zenmonk Valued Member

    No mean to insult you and I know that anything I say won't make you change your opinion and I know it's not my duty to even try that :)

    There are many who believe so. I think most people (in all religions) believe so even though they say they don't.

    Then there are others who believe in things like this:
    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi

    In my opinion whether one believes in "an eye for an eye" is totally up to him. People who don't believe this won't have problems with the people who believe in this. And people who believe in this only have problems with other people who believe in this.





    Actually - you missed one aspect: Peter didn't stop the thief because Peter was hurt/insulted (or something - can't remember) by the robbed guy and that why Peter had his "revenge" by not stopping the thief (at least this was the case in the movie :) )

    I don't know if it does any good to start analyzing this situation :) but... Was the reason for thief's behavior is Peter's fault? Or... should have the society do something years before this incident so that the thief actually wouldn't be there stealing/killing. Was he treated badly in his childhood so that as a grown-up he gets his revenge (because he was hurt when he was young)?

    Many times we focus on the leaves not on the roots. We take painkiller when we have headache even though the reason might be lack of food... need of fresh air or something else. In fight for AIDS we think new medicins will do the trick even though we should focus on roots: "how AIDS is spread" - "by contact". Should we try to get humans act more wisely or... will we continue "fixing" our errors afterwards by use of medicin? Preventing the spread of AIDS is really simple: honesty. One should be honest to other. People can stop the spread of AIDS if they start ACTING properly. There's no magic trick. Little bit of common sense.

    That's why I believe in focusing on the roots/reasons is more fruitful than focusing on the sympthoms. That's why I don't believe in violence. Nor eye for an eye.





    I don't mean to say that "I'm right, you are WRONG". I stopped thinking like that years ago because I know I'm usually wrong :)

    Anyway, how "future violence" is prevented by use of violence? When or where has that ever happened? In my life earlier I have always thought "eye for eye" and "When I'm right I HAVE to prove it" and "if somebody punches me, I punch him twice harder". Now as I look back I really don't see a single situation where this behavior lead anywhere good. When something "good" happened afterwards it was not really like "war towards peace", it was more like "exhausted because of warfare and that's why 'peace' was born as there was no more resources to fight"

    As I mentioned earlier: when your friend (or stranger) is getting mugged it is your duty to act. Acting doesn't necessarily mean attacking the mugger - but it can mean loud shouts or threats towards the muggers but... even then the physical contact is the last resort.





    Yes. It is a story. But I kind of like the story. For me it says that "what really is important in life" and nowadays we are too material oriented... and maybe something else too. We all held responsibility and it is true that avoiding these kind of situations (focusing "the roots") is usually the easiest and best way to handle issues.

    Something for you to think: What if you managed to pummel one into the earth but other guy strikes his knife into your back? Then they take your wallet and run away. If the wound is too serious and you fall into coma... What would your wife say standing next to your bed in hospital? Would he ask "Oh, why you just didn't give the wallet..."?

    I'm not saying we need to give anyone our wallet and I'm not saying that you should believe anything I say or the story says or somebody else says. But I would encourage to think these issues bit more. I respect Andy Cap's view about avoiding the situation very very much and I don't know what is the right way to act in these kind of situations but hopefully this will give some perspective.
     
  19. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member


    I thought about this, and has thought about it many times. In this scenerio what is to say his friend doesn't stab me even if i do give my wallet? What is to say that now they have my address from my wallet and attack my family? Yes, look at the roots, but don't forget the rotten branches that may fall on your head.

    To fight this man would not be a rewarding thing for my ego, but it would possibly, and I stress possibly make him think twice before he attacks someone again. How do you train an animal to not bite or to do what is required of it? You most certainly don't reward them for negative behavior - humans are animals, and nothing more.
     
  20. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    I believe in war, fighting and honor. I do not believe in standing by watching others hurt by someone who does not have the capabilities (even at the moment) to percieve others as humans, and who is only worried about his OWN materialist mindset.

    Let me ask you something. You said violence cannot be stopped by violence. Well, then how can materialism be stopped by giving the thief even more materialistic posessions??? To me, what you said is the paradox.

    This is what I believe in, somewhat:

    Amon Amarth, "Death in Fire."

    The wait is soon at end
    Always charge never bend
    Morning is here, make your stand
    Live for honor, glory, death in fire!

    Total war is here
    Face it without fear
    Age of sword, age of spear
    Fight for honor, glory, death in fire!

    See the fire rise
    Flames are raging high
    Soon all will burn and die
    Burn for honor, glory, death in fire!

    Storm of lethal flames
    Only death remains
    Ragnarok is closing in
    Die for honor, glory, death in fire!

    Forces of chaos is on the move
    Everyone, choose your side
    And know the end is coming soon
    The day for all to die

    The day is here when Bifrost breaks
    Nor sun or moon will rise
    When the dead rise from their graves
    and Surtur spreads his fire

    All you know will wither away
    And sink into the sea
    A new world will be born one day
    Where everyone is free


    I believe that we must fight all that is evil, not give in to them.
     

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