When push comes to shove...

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Judderman, Jul 3, 2004.

  1. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    I was reading through some books again and came across an interesting defence. The shove.

    The idea is to create a suitable gap between you and your opponent, when followed by the right verbal commands, it can trigger the flight response. This sounds/looks like a reasonable idea as it can cause minimal injury (unless they fall over and bang their head) and looks great for witnesses and cctv.

    The downside would be that it would perhaps only work for those in the "undecided*" phase of pre-fight. Standing square on, giving it plenty of verbals. The other point comes from McCarthy's "habitual acts of violence" (haov), which indicates that a common "attack" is when a person is pushed then retaliates, usually with a puch to the head. Thus, if you only push someone, not shove them, then you are only going to trigger an attack. Another point come from conversations with those in the states who say a "football" tackle is also a very common attack, thus if you push someone away, wouldn't this give them the range to try this effectively?

    Personally I've never tried it.


    *this term is my own opinion.
  2. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    We chunners would rather keep them close, thanks!
  3. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Why is that? Do you think this may be a viable option?
  4. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    There's a range where most fighters can't live with us - too close for a proper wind up for a punch. I'd liek to keep 'em there and barrage them with punches, headbutts and kicks. If I push 'em away - I've got to get them back!
  5. renshinkai

    renshinkai New Member

    So when you say 'shove' what exactly do you mean? Just an extra large push? It sounds like a good idea if the atttacker isn't very confident.
  6. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Richie, are you saying that you feel uncomfortable fighting outside a particular range?

    Ren, yes a hard push, to get a least a 5 foot distance.
  7. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Our system isn't about trading kicks, etc.. It sa bit like asking a grappler if they're unformtable outside a certain range.. They just want to fight at their optimal range.
  8. DrunkenMantis

    DrunkenMantis New Member

    In the first Mantis form I am learning (White Ape Stealing Peaches), there is actually a shove which stems from movements that simulate an aborted throw. The movements mimic what would happen if someone was grasping you but wouldn't let go, so after trying to throw them, you give them a hard shove in the lower chest.
  9. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    We have an entire set devoted to sweeping and tripping/throwing, that uses a shove after a series of attempts to take someone to the ground. Works really well since your opponent is already destablized by the preceeding attempts.
  10. pug32

    pug32 Valued Member

    I beleive either comes from or if not is definately used in the geoff thompson stuff. It isn't a physical attack, pushing them to the ground would be a bonus but it needs to be delivered in a way that makes them think if they actually want to go through with fighting you. The idea is that it overloads there system and produces the flight repsonse. you are beating them mentally rather than physically.

    It s a choice if you don't think it will work then keep them at your best range and pound on them. If you are doing door work or similar, steaming into someone because they rare up at you could find you in a police cell.
  11. NeonxBurst

    NeonxBurst 1st Black

    I'd have to agree with ya Richie. We Iowans for the most part feel the same way or atleast those of us who've ever brawled in a barn/barnyard. You let your opponent too far away even five feet and he has time to run, which in most cases means to get a weapon not to get away, and yes here in the states a "football" tackle is a common starter Judderman which is exactly why you need a distance of no more than 2 and a half feet for a nice knee blow or a good elbow strike, but in the future im gonna try this shove tactic you've found. It could actually be useful:D

  12. Albert

    Albert Banned Banned

    Pushing someone is still an attack. And not a bad thing for defending yourself, and having time to escape, i know guys who could send me flying with a shove, and have. They could easily hurl a man off his feet into a wall or something, then run.
  13. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    The way I see it, the push or the shove can be used if you get it right. How to get it right? Well, let's say you've got this goon all over your face, he's verbally abusing you and you've got witnesses all around you that see the situation. (In a bar or outside a mocie theatre perhaps) You try to talk to said goon, but no effect. A quick push (or shove) followed by you getting into a defensive guard will let you get an edge. A push isn't as hard as a punch when it comes to the law, and if your witnesses can testify that the goon had invaded your private space you're home free... (Hopefully!)

    Then again, if you got no witnesses, or if the goon has backup from a bunch of friends, you'd find another solution.

    A short sidenote to you guys that wouldn't push him because you don't feel comfortable fighting in "the kicking range": Get yourself some lessions in kicking... you don't have to kick high, but you'd better learn how to as people tend to attack you from all ranges ;) "Eh, excuse me Mr. Attacker, could you please come a bit closer? You see, I'm not comfortable fighting you when you're that far away..." (Yeah, sorry, I'm pushing it :Angel: )
  14. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Okay - feet are for standing on silly. We train to bridge the gap from kicking range to closer, where we're most lethal. Why wouldn't I want to fight on MY terms? If the attacker doesn't like it, they have to move backwards faster than I can move forwards. And they're not going to be kicking whilst they do it..
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2004
  15. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    I understand your view RichieRich, but I don't share it ;) (And I'm not saying this stuff to **** you off in any way!)

    Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where your favorites won't work. Maybe you're unable to rush the attacker, maybe you're hurt, maybe you're outnumbered, maybe... a thousand other things. This is why I, personally, like to follow the following "rules" when I practice self defence:

    If the person is further away than twice your reach (two arms lengths), leave him be. He can't hurt you, you can't hurt him.
    At one and a half of your reach (with your arms) you might be able to kick him, and he can try to kick you!
    At arms lenght you can hit, he can hit. (You can also use some kicks here)
    At one half arms lenght, you can use your knee or elbow, as can he. (Some hand techniques might work here, like the hook and uppercut)
    At point blank, you'd better get him to the ground before he drops you. (And you can use knees and elbows here too)

    By all means, practice what you feel works for you! I'm saying what I do when I practice :)

    By the way: I know a good lot of techniques to be used agains a rushing attacker (that would be you, right?). Both strikes and kicks, and even takedowns... Rushing isn't always the solution...
  16. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Mine work if we're both inside a phonebox. How many TDKers can say that?
    I could also practice shooting if we both have guns, agressive driving if we're in cars etc.. but I'd rather take one tool thats applicable in most situations and get very good at it, rather than dilute my effort with redundant techniques. The only redundancy in WC is that there are more punches comming AFTER this one, and they're timed in milliseconds.

    Myth #1 - well rounded martial artisits ARE NOT the best fighters.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2004
  17. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    OK, let me try to say what I really think now. (English isn't my first language so I might be misunderstood a bit...)

    If you've found something that work, use it!

    I've found what work for me, it's not what you have, but as I said, it work for me. (Tried and tested in real life situations...)

    (Btw, yeah I do tkd, but I have my self defence techniques from Krav Maga and the FMA's... tkd self defence isn't working for me...)
  18. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    You're English is better than mine!

    I always thought TKD was so great on the street. I nearly took Krav Maga - its very pragmatic. MY point is generally I only want 1 solution (the best solution) to any given problem.

    I'm a big John Arne Riise fan!!
  19. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Rushing isn't really descriptive. There's timing and finesse, we exploit the lack of mobility that using your feet for kicking gives.

    Try this : http://www.fighting.net/blsb.php
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2004
  20. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    Thanks for the link. It helped me understand what you're saying, and I agree with you :)

    All I'm trying to say is that "What if..." hope you understand ;)

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