When does lifting become pointless?

If you lift purely to increase strength for ring fighting at what point does it become pointless to keep trying to improve strength?

For example. I'm a beginner who weighs 77kg. I want to improve my strength so I have stronger strikes, take downs etc. I lift weights and my bench goes from 50kg to 90kg, my squat from 90 to 140kg my deadlift from 100 to 160kg. Obviously because I've never lifted weights before I found it quite easy to greatly improve my strength, now my techniques are much stronger.

Now it's going to take a lot more effort for me to increase my lift numbers by 10kg than it was for me to vastly improve them the first time, and if I do invest the time in strength training opposed to other training methods I will only be increasing my strength by a fraction?

So my question is at what point a fighter should stop trying to improve their strength and focus on other aspects of their fitness. So if we talk about it in terms of body weight should they stop at a 2x body weight squat, 2.5x bw deadlift and a 1.25x bw bench? Or should they just stop when they feel that the returns from strength training barely improve the strength of their techniques?

 

Dont stop lifting or trying to improve. just periodise your training, you shouldnt be trying to get that extra 10 kgs on the bench press a week before your fight, But if your in a preseason conditioning program then getting that extra strength is part of your overal goal!

 

you should never stop.....even if you just keep going to maintain what you have gained...that is just as important as improving. If you stop..you lose.

 

Does that mean you keep trying for gains or reach a level you're happy with and stick to it?

 

Weight lifting is never pointless, you can never be too strong or too fast in a fight stick with it.

 

Sure...if that makes the individual happy. Physical fitness is all about the individual. If they are happy with the level that they are at, they should strive to maintain it. Eventually they may want to get stronger and because they were smart and went on a maintenace routine, they won't be starting from scratch.

Me? I think I will always be trying to improve in some aspect or another...then again I am still young (28) and may change my song when I have two or three more decades on me!

 

Replace the Bench press with Ax Chops! Better for the punching and works your obliques and lats too

 

As long as you are making gains in strength, no matter how slowly, then it's not pointless. Eventually their will come a time when you can't gain any more strength for your size and then, if your lifting strictly to help your fighting, you will have to decide if you want to go up a weight class or not. If you don't then that doesn't really mean it would be pointless to continue lifting, it just means you need to change your goals and routines. Plus as others have said if you stop you will lose what you have gained.

 

At some point I think it is pointless (for fighting) trying to improve how much you can lift. But you can never be too explosive - there's a difference. Maximal load strength is not all that important for fighting, in my opinion.

Unless perhaps you're training for the WWE?

 

Consistency, persistence, and hard work will go a long ways. This helps you get from the ranks of ordinary to extraordinary. Sure you may only be deadlifting 160kg now, but in time someday you could be deadlifting 240kg. That huge increase in strength will only make you a stronger more powerful fighter. If your opponent is at the same weight, fitness level, and skill at you, yet he can only deadlift 80kg compared to your 240kg you will have a huge advantage over him.

Increases in body weight is one of the things you'll have to look out for though. You don't want to lift so that you add a lot of weight, just a lot of strength. In that respect, a simple 2 days a week is fine and leaves you plenty of other time to work on the other aspects of your training. I don't think 2 hours a week will take away all that much training time from you.

 

You really think that people of the same weight and fitness level will be at such a big discrepency of what they can lift - i don't think so, so much.

Take two hundred kilo guys of the same fitness, I doubt one will be able to lift over 200% more weight.

Whilst with training there may be a significant difference in the amount they can lift - maybe 50% -60% on average this is just one category or aspect of strength. *edit this is based on axelators real life example and assumes he stayed at the same weight throughout his strength gain. Which is probably not wuite right as it's as likely he gained some weight through bigger.

I have nothing against bigger and stronger, but..

Strength is not one dimensional. The actual usefullness of maximal load strenght for fighting is minimal. So your claim that it will make you the more powerful fighter is wrong.

It depends how you measure power in fighting. Maximal load strength does not so simply equate to something like more powerful punches.

It has it's place but better speed and explosive strength trump it. maximal load strength and explosive strength aren't best trained in exactly the same way.

 

If this were the case.. I'll never understand why a fighter would persue an advantage of 10-15% maximal load strength (as per the OP's example) for lifting bigger kg's over a 15% advantage in skill. If it was a straight up choice. Never mind the advantages better speed and explosive power offer. I'd choose increased endurence over it too.

 

If you have one individual who weight trains seriously and compare it to a person who does not, that formula is not quite off the mark. I myself have competed in strength sports in the past and consider myself to be a strong guy. I'm not an elite lifter, but I've won my fair share of strongman and powerlifting trophies. So if at 90kg I'm lifting that 240kg, but the individual I'm up against is 90kg and, due to no weight training or "fad fitness" training can only handle 80kg (which is not out of the realm of possibility), yes I'll have that advantage. Even if he's lifting 120kg I still have that huge advantage.

It depends on the guys. I am friends with a national level powerlifter who at 90kg has squatted a little over 365kg, benched over 225kg, and deadlifted almost 320kg. He's no martial artist, but if he went that route I guarantee his strength would be a huge advantage.

Just to address all this at once at the sake of rambling -

At the risk of getting indepth and confusing, the stronger a fiber is the more explosiveness it can generate. This is why Olympic lifters do lots of heavy squatting exercises to build that leg strength for that initial pull. Maximal load strength exercises do possess some degree of explosiveness (though yes, nowhere near Olympic lifters). Most athletes begin training explosively when their muscles aren't ready to handle it and they need a good foundation of overall muscular strength before they really begin. The best combination is to use both modalities. Powerlifters and the like actually do use explosive training (called Dynamic Effort in West Side terminology) in their training.

Hopefully that wasn't too bad. So yes, keep lifting as it's important. Once you get a good baseline then you can experiment with other modalities.

 

While I agree with kuma about the weight discrepancy, if strength was more important than cardio and skill, then the best powerlifters would be the best fighters as well. I think there is at some level always a trade-off between endurance and strength, but to the vast majority of people in gyms and dojos, this is irrelevant. It won't change the way that most of us train, and it's possible that powerlifting is the best thing to do in addition to martial arts.

 

Naturally there has to be a balance. In addition to my weight training I also incorporate running, yoga, calisthenics, and flexibility in addition to my martial arts training. I wouldn't say powerlifting necessarily either; any well-balanced strength training routine would be beneficial (hence why we have hojo undo for karateka).

Strength training is easy. The problem is when people try to make it too difficult. If you train consistently with hard work on exercises that make you strong, you can't go wrong.

 

Yeah, cool.

 

Basically, maximal strength is the basis upon which you can build explosive strength, so no, it doesn't become pointless.

 

I think you should stop when you get bored. Seriously.

Once you get bored with, say, squats, then you wont put as much effort into it and you will be basically wasting your time instead of doing something more beneficial.

I dont mean quit strength training, I just mean the specific lift. Stop squatting and start doing burpees. Stop doing burpees and start doing plyometric jumps. Stop jumping and start doing snatches.

Im sure there comes a point when we are all old and feeble where we can't do these lifts anymore. When that point comes, start training things that you know you can improve with age... like technique.

Just my opinion

 

I'd have to disagree with you there. The pointless bit I refer to in this thread is lifting bigger and bigger - bigger numbers. And I think that matches what the OP is describing. You seem to think someones come along and said being strong/ stronger is pointless. Nope, not so far as I can tell. Certain level & maintenence of maximal load strength for instance is desirable, sure. At some point I think how much bigger you can lift does become pointless if your goal is to be the best fighter you can train to be. There will come a point where the trade off to lift bigger gives diminishing returns to your overall training regime & goals.

How much better pound for pound do you think Machida would be if he could lift simply lift an extra 10% in kgs.. He's strong enough for what he can do and what he has to do. Fighters are in bigger trouble if they lose their speed and endurence.

It's been proven time and time again - whilst it can be advantagous you don't need to be the strongest to win fights. It applies perhaps more so to the striking arts. I'll also state that I think flat out size and weight can be as useful if not more so in fighting as your maximal load strength - but you still need to know how to use it. the direct use of maximal load strength is minimal at best.

For the sake of thoroughness I'd also like you to qualify your statement. You make it sound like one kind of strength is the basis for another. I don't think that is quite true. Strength is strength but at the same time it isn't one dimensional. it's about how it is exerted and the performance of that. And what we have are descriptions of that. To say one description of how strength can be used is the basis for another - I'm not sure. Of course different types of strength training seep into others and will benefit - as was decsribed by kuma.

So the issue is all about how. What gets up my nose a bit is when people put their attention on this one aspect of more. Like more weight is more strength and that is the magic bullit that will make them great fighters or even better fighters - there's obviously more to it than that. No, it just makes you able to lift more in a certain way, translating your strength to being most useful for fighting should be the priority strength work not how big can we go. It has it's usefullness but in the big picture it's not that big a deal in my opinion, past a certain point. In the realm of sports people that fight pound for pound and in striking arts like boxing, I think you'll be hard pressed to find pro who are that bothered about lifting bigger and bigger past a certain point. there come a point where you reached a zone that is good enough for your frame, and gives you enough to work with.

To go beyond it may well be pointless to what one is really trying to acheive. It is about balancing it all at the end of the day, which was also mentioned. I agree with that 100%. And that dictates that it will indeed be 'pointless' to strive for those extra kg's in pure maximal load strength alone.




[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8sSK4k6WHw&feature=PlayList&p=CD076AB9F89F58C7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=31"]YouTube - Mirko Cro Cop vs Bob Sapp[/ame]