What's wrong with High Kicks?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by pgm316, Feb 27, 2003.

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  1. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    But now we are back to the same (reoccouring i might add) point about you seeing a spinning kick as "flashy" where as I see it as "Bread and Butter".

    You could argue that a kneee or elbow increases the risk by closing down the distance to the attackers attacking tools.

    Who is right? No one.

    The choices you make depend on the situation first not the choice of technique.
  2. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    In reply to your comments Tai Gip, I don't consider reverse techniques 'slow', in fact if you can perform them properly they're pretty bloody fast & have enough power to remove your guard & your head at no extra cost. Once again, if you know how to apply them you WON'T get smacked in the head, as your opponent won't be expecting it. As far as all the 'that wouldn't work against my style' stuff, Tai-Gip I've fought just about every major style that you can think of, & managed to pull it off without getting smacked in the head. In the end I've gotten several personal students who are Dan grades in other systems because they want to know how I managed to beat them. I'm not being arrogant, I really can pull these things off.
    Now think about this for a second, everyone decrys high section kicks & reverse kicks as self defence techniques. Your average drunken yobo DOES NOT EXPECT this type of technique, especially when I've got him half unconcious already & I can throw a kick harder than you could EVER punch & faster than you could expect. In training to use these techniques constantly you can get pretty good with them.
    Reverse turning kick or back piercing kick are naturally drilled into me as counters, & I've applied them without EVER having come a cropper against all manner of drug hyped idiot.
    The complete martial artist is someone who can fight effectively at ALL RANGES. If you cannot apply your kicking then you are weak at that range, & that to me is pretty dangerous.
    Lastly, the world of martial arts is brutally darwinian, & is most cases things that don't work usually get discarded. The Koreans were the most feared fighting force in the Vietnam conflict. & I've sat around with several Korean Masters as they recounted war stories (guys like Master Rhee, Master Park etc all served as instructors to their version of special forces) from vietnam & from their constant battling on the border between N & S Korea. These guys tempered their techniques in the heat of battle, & made them work. I worked as an instructor to one of the eastern european polices special units, & their guys regularly use kicking techniques with brutal effectiveness. I've done the same myself in various places around the world. I think its horses for courses Tai Gip, as you seem entrenched in your position, & I'm entrenched in mine because I've constantly applied my training & know that it works.
  3. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    Mark you havnt answered the question..
    What is faster front kick,snap round,spinning kick

    And yes you can make a spinning kick work hell i can make a spinning kick work but is it the quikest most effective technique in a dire situation
    Why dont you put it to some of those instructors you mentioned?

    I trained in Aus with Mr Jut he was a 7th dan pressure point fighter(i was told highest ranked outside korea) with a great attitude..

    Funny story
    My first tkd class i was sparring with a friend who was 1st dan he was jumping all over the place i was holding off doing anything then he got me across the left side of the head with a beautiful round kick so i decided i better kick him back and threw a snap front kick ...well at the time he was in the air throwing a spinning kick and my kick caught him right in the groin...well needless to say he dropped to the floor mid kick and lay on the floor groaning several friends of his rushed over eying me suspiciously ...one asked what happened Mr Jut (who had been watching us) replied "Bob (not actual name) kick boy so boy kick bob back"
    My friend still tells me 10 years on its the most pain he has ever been in in his life and i wasnt aiming or tying to kick hard

    That was what first put me off actualy using spin kicks though i still train them (now touching wood) if im ever in the poo i dont intend to use them

    And i think most people here would have had experiances for example the tkd instructors ive trained with who tried spin kicks where toast (excluding Mr Jut never sparred)

    Simple maths tells you what is quicker technique and what isnt
    im not saying whats better just faster...
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2003
  4. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    Reverse it Tai Gip, you throw a front kick to my groin & I counter by spinning off it with reverse turning kick or back kick.
    I don't have to put it to ANY of the instructors I mentioned, as I've been there done it & used them myself many times.
    Yes a front kick to the groin is slightly quicker, but it isn't always going to be the answer. By not training to the point where you can confidently employ any of the techniques in your arsenal you are limiting yourself. If you aren't confident in your kicking ability then don't do it, but don't decry anyone who says "excuse me, but I know you're wrong BECAUSE I'VE USED IT MORE OFTEN IN COMBAT THAN I HOPE YOU EVER WILL HAVE TO!"
    Tai Gip, you can use as many examples as you want of 'when I trained in a TKD class'. I could give you just as many examples of when I trained with Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Kyokushinkai, JuJutsu & knocked them out with kicking techniques etc etc etc. The long & the short of it is that I've used the techniques that you say won't work outside of the Dojang, & I've used them over & over again, without EVER being swept, kicked in the nuts, trapped etc. They aren't always the answer, but I've made them work. There are instances where I don't tend to use leg techniques, such as when edged weapons are involved, but used at the right time & in the right place they work brutally well.
    I've spent a good few years of my life doing things & experiencing things that I wouldn't want anyone else to have to experience & go through, but I wouldn't change my experiences for the world as its given me the chance to field test what I teach, & see a side of life that most people never get to. I truely hope that for the majority of people this argument stays theoretical.
  5. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    Ahh Mark all i asked was which was quicker

    as previously covered each situation demands a different response if you where fighting you what technique would you use

    as you said yes its faster to front kick which was the whole point

    i never said they dont work ive used them but i know quicker moves dont you?

    And also as covered mark from the sound of things you could probably smack someone around and force a watermelon up there **** but it dosnt make it the quickest move

    And just to brag my best move against a double arm lock (one man each side) was a jumping split kick that took them both in the face and they where locking from shoulder level each side during an advanced security course when i asked the instructor what your meant to do against someone who actualy knows what they are doing..
  6. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Heh! Sorry for making my devillishly appearance in this thread again ;)

    Yep - a spinning kick is not the first answer in a fight nor is ti required required, it's down to how you use it, and they are some powerful peices of s***

    I had been hit by one, it went right through my block and nearly took off my head, yeap it would be easy to counter them, but they are more of a fight ender than a front kick, I myself am not exactly good at them but have seen too many pull them off smoothly rarely leaving their back open

    I dunno TG, I am not an expert at physics but I have got this thing called a brain which says e=mc2 has nothing to to do with how fast you kick :rolleyes:

    If you really want to know their use maybe you should watch some fights of Bill Wallace or Benny Udriguez [spells?] or *GASP* actually visit a good school and ask the intructor to show you! ;)

    They can also be used as a training tool to increase stamina/endurance/flexibility/balance etc etc, not the first thing I myself would use since they are not my cup of tea and I am not good at using them, but I have been hit enuff times in the head to convince me ;)

  7. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    Yes, but the difference in speed is negligible. I've actually had this bet with one of the local Shotokan instructors. We got two people holding pads & someone to shout NOW!, upon which we'd both kick. You could barely separate the two kicks landing.
    It isn't just the speed of the technique that matters, its how its set up, & how elusive an opponent finds it.
    There's more than one way to skin a yobbo! Just because its different to your way doesn't make it wrong. You might not favour kicking techniques in self defence, but someone who has constantly drilled them & can make them work will. They will also be able to conceal them & time them to make them effective. You also have to listen when someone says that they have made them work in many different situations. Generally if someone tells me that they can make a technique work I try to find out how they did it, not continue to say "ah but, this technique is faster". Granted, a lead hand jab is quicker than a reverse turning kick, lead hand jab is faster than almost any other technique, so why don't we all just practice lead hand jab? Every technique will work if you train to use it intelligently, its up to you to apply it at the right time.
  8. Jim

    Jim New Member

    I've gotta stop reading these posts after wearing contact lenses for too long. I have to re-read them a few times due to the mix up with vowels... That and because Mark doesn't know what a paragraph is. :D
  9. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    Sorry Jim, I'll try to keep it all shorter & monosyllabic for you:D

    I might get carried away & not paragraph, but according to Tai Gip I can shove a watermelon up someones ****:D

    Is that enough paragraphing for you?;)
  10. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    If I was fighting me I wouldn't be fighting, we'd both be running in opposite directions.

    Quicker isn't necessarily best. Speed and power aren't as related as people tend to think when applied to human bodies. Humans aren't quite the simplistic system you get taught about in physics.

    So your legs actually got to above your own shoulders while you did the splits and managed to plant each foot slightly above its matching hand. Very impressive. Well done.

    Well given that E=mc^2 is actually used to calculate matter-energy equivalency, i.e. the amount of energy you get if you take a mass and convert the entire thing directly to energy (as done with a few fractions of a very small amount of heavy metals in atom bombs) I really don't see what it can have to do with kicking speed. Perhaps he was trying for P=V*I^2, although that's an electrical formula. Maybe F=mv?
  11. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    once again e=mc2 is the end formula after figuring out the power is an effect of the combined causels speed and mass......
    hence if it moves fast it hurts eg (i think 5th time) a five cent coin dropped a foot above your head dosnt hurt..... from the top of a forty storey building it goes through you into the ground ..
    now can anyone tell me why
    could it be the speed ?
    and no im not suggesting kicking quickly will cause a miniture fission explosion just
    eg you can run someone over with a tank and kill them or in the same time period kill dozens with a gun firing bullets that are moving very quick and im not sure of the physics but in terms of strike power would the 20 tonnes tank or the bullet have more striking power on impact...
    And for those that are going to ask once again what e=mc2 has to do with kicking is because it tells us the power/energy is an effect of any given mass moving at any given speed
    once again yes im aware that e=mc2 relates specificaly to a mass reaching reaching critical level when its atoms are traveling at the speed of light

    ""Speed and power aren't as related as people tend to think when applied to human bodies. Humans aren't quite the simplistic

    Where do you study ckd isnt that a simple rule.... if not why are we told to drive slower...... why do highspeed crashes kill more people that slow speed.... go punch a brick wall slowly then fast wich hurts more ..... punch a punching bag slowly ..does it move... hit it as fast as you can bet it moves more ..
    and being as how im not a phyics student you tell me what causes the bag to move is it energy transferance ? if so why does the slow moving fist not move it as much ? maybe its because it isnt carrying enough force.....you tell me ?
    And no not follow though but impact power...
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2003
  12. Jim

    Jim New Member

    But if you could control this experiment enough to ensure that you only struck the wall with the same 'wash over' kenetic energy at either speed you'd get the same amount of pain (or lack of it).
  13. Cain

    Cain New Member

    TG, like Jimmy [CKD] said - Is'nt F-ma the formula you are looking for?

    Go back to your books TG :D

    Hi Jimmy, what the hell took you so long? ;)

  14. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Absolute rubbish mate. Given that power is not actually in the formula at all. The E stands for energy, and its a formula for energy-mass equivalency. In fact for that matter the only speed in the formula is the speed of light, a constant.

    No, but it could be the momentum and the fact that when a body changes its vector a force is exerted in both directions. A force equal, and opposite in each way. So yes, speed does contribute, but its not the whole story.

    Depends. The bullets exert more pressure over a concentrated area through having a large amount of momentum concentrated into a small collision. On the other hand the tank carries a lot of weight and applies a lot of pressure over a much larger area. Strike power isn't something where you can just say 'oh this has more or this has less' without some hefty calculations including the area involved, the force applied over that area by each thing, and so on.

    No, it doesn't tell us that at all. You want F=ma.

    Don't know where you got this one from. All that E=mc^2 means is that for example a kilogram mass if converted to pure energy would produce an evergy of 3*10^8 joules. In other words Tai Gip, it describes mass energy equivalency and has nothing to do with speed, power or kicking! At least get your physics right.

    If your rule of higher speed means higher power was applied, then driving slow enough would mean that no one would die, and if you crashed at a high enough speed there'd be no way you could survive. Erego humans are not that simple.

    Well actually the fist isn't carrying any force, the force is produced by the impact when the fist meets its target, but we'll ignore that for the time being. And a slow moving fist will actually move a bag, if you've got the sense to follow through. On the other hand a fast moving fist that stops at the point of impact won't move the bag as much.

    Not quite mate. It depends what effect you want to produce. If you want to make someone cough or gasp for breath you want impact shock. If you want to break their ribcage and collapse their lung you want follow through.

    Been busy with university work mate. :p
  15. Sir_William

    Sir_William New Member

    What is a kick but merely an avenue to strike my opponet. It is not height that matters. It is where the best target lies, whether it is head height or the opponents shins. It is best to condition yourself to be able strike wherever the need be so yes a high kick has its purpose, I would use it only if I have achieved perfect speed,balance,timing,and control over it. One way to achieve control and balance is to pratice your kicks in a slow chambering method concentrating on each aspect of the movement and holding the leg in its proper positions the slower the better in the slowness comes balance and control
  16. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    Don't know where you got this one from. All that E=mc^2 means is that for example a kilogram mass if converted to pure energy would produce an evergy of 3*10^8 joules. In other words Tai Gip, it describes mass energy equivalency and has nothing to do with speed, power or kicking! At least get your physics right.

    And for those that are going to ask once again what e=mc2 has to do with kicking is because it tells us the power/energy is an effect of any given mass moving at any given speed

    do me a fovour as ive already said read the post dont just look for things to pick on as per above you make a statement and further along quote me hmmm is there something wrong here

    and again the point isnt about physice rules why dont you be of benifit and tell me how what im saying would work it might involve more thought than just quoting the same spew of facts over and over again i think we all get the picture your studying but unless you can actually explain why everything happens back up ... now i will repeat myself in the hope you may actualy read some of the post rather than just looking for points to counter
    yes it is possible tonnes of people do it now tell us how it could work.......even in theory everyone else already thinks it cant so be helpful
  17. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    and i thought this was a martial arts forum maybe your looking for the physics forum and once again as >>>YOU>>> said no we dont understand the nature of things........
  18. Cain

    Cain New Member

    I was thinking of saying the same thing to you TG :D

    I still remember the first person who brought physcs in here with no mention of their relevance to high kicks...

    Energy n power are almost completely different things.....don't shout at me Jimmy if I am wrong :D

    C is the speed of light mate and E is the energy hardly anything to do with the speed of kicks!!! It would have made more sense if you put F=ma ;)

    Anyways care to comment on the posts on kicking then TG???

    pssst, not sure about this but is it just me or does anyone else smell troll?

  19. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I did read the post.

    Actually I think you'll find that not only does physics bind even martial artists, but I'm also explaining what the effects of certain things are. Such as follow-through compared to impact strike, and the advantage of striking with small or larger areas.

    Maybe you should reread my post.

    As I said, even martial artists are still bound by physics. And actually you said we as a race don't understand the nature of things, I just said what the nature of things were.
  20. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    yes i was talking about kicking refer back to my discusion with Mark

    then i became involved in a "discussion" with Ckd
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2003
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