What's wrong with High Kicks?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by pgm316, Feb 27, 2003.

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  1. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    These two posts are related.

    Mark, yes you have made it work for you, that's fine, but the Anti-Kickers have some valid points, as most people do not pressure test what they do, be it kicking or whatever.
    High kicks make the user more vulnerable to the opponent than anything else though?

    For once tai-gip I agree, most pure WC people do not know how to deal with high kicks, as it isn't trained in their environment. Like you say however, I have done other things.

    Jumping Back Kick was my trademark at one time, though while I've not laid anyone out with one in the street (da street, da street), I have effectively used side kick/back kick combinations during an altercation with a couple of yobs not content with their evenings entertainment.

    It's not about styles or arts, or even about techniques as much as people. I do believe that this forum has succeeded in changing many peoples minds about a variety of subjects. Everything we do should be questioned and tested before being put forward as 'the way'.

    I don't find it very productive when someone just says such and such is crud.
    I'm more interested in how they come to such conclusions and how correct in their beliefs they are.

    So while we should always pressure test what we practice, the forum is a good place to pressure test our opinion.

    If everyone else is saying something different to you, maybe you're wrong?
  2. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk


    <heats up the Ambrosia for some serious pressure testing!>

    Now, how do you make a Kitten fart? ;)
  3. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Up the protein mix in its diet. Should see results in a few hours.
  4. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    rotflmao feed it chilli ?
  5. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    As a point Mark im not that good but when i was checking out all the other styles while training in wing chun to test its effectiveness i went to one tkd class in croydon in a scout hall told the instructor id never trained before and took a free class.
    In the sparring i got every student with a simple step up staight punch to the head (wing chun style) the instructor became irate that this was occuring and actualy pushed a blackbelt lady out from in from of me took a stance while shouting a kai and launched a round kick at my head that i must admit was pretty damn fast ... however i was lucky my reflexes took over and my wing chun training came to the fore i khan sao'd the kick and put the toes of my left foot tickling the hair of his goolies.... he took note of this threw two punches and attempted a spinning heel kick .. Now let me tell you i almost had enought time to make a roast dinner while he was turning.. i stepped into the turn blocked the leg with my knee and placed my fist at the back of his head waiting for him to turn around and realize his attack hadnt been very effective.... he took note of this threw a low round a right cross and spun the other way ...same result... in an effort to show him it wasnt that i was better just that spinning wasnt a good idea i turned my back on him... he round kicked me in the side of the head knocking me to the ground and then told me not to turn my back...... obviously my point had escaped him but yes he did demonstrate that a good high kick hurts...:)

    Now ive had fun times like these with most instuctors in Melbourne and thats what im basing my suggestions on what works on me and what i can make work on others

    And yes i do love high kicks myself
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2003
  6. Sporran

    Sporran Silverback.

    **Can't resist pedantic tendencies**
    Tai-Gip, what that speed refers to iin E=mc2 is the speed of light. Only light, not legs or arms.

    Light. The shiny stuff that makes all the lovely plants happy.

    That equation concerns the fact that mass and energy are fundamentally linked, and helped form the entire field of nuclear physics. It has absolutely no relation to any descriptions of conventional (Newtonian) mechanics.

    What you should be concerned with is the equation described in Newton's second law of motion; F=m x a, where F is force, m is mass and a is acceleration.
    In fact, since the 2nd law states that force is proportional to the product of mass and acceleration, you are further incorrect. "Speed" is not acceleration.

    **gets off soap box**

    Hope that helps.

    By the way, as a wing chun guy, paradoxically I love high kicks too. We train them in our class, in order to learn to defend against them.
    Back in the old days, I used to do karate competitions, and my favourite technique was a jodan mawashi geri, and I got my fair share of ippons with them . Still can, but I wouldn't use them in preference to other techniques that allow easier flow and don't compromise balance as much.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2003
  7. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Without seeming picky :),

    Surely any technique could make you just as vulnerable given the application is wrong?? Horses for courses.

    But hasn't this thread been through this before??

  8. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    1/ Sure. That block where you lie on the ground with your legs akimbo is pretty risky too. :D

    2/ You're not accusing me of deliberately perpetuating this discussion are you? :eek: :D
  9. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Hey Tai-Gip,

    Did you not realise that its bad manners to enter a dojang/dojo/kwoon with the intentions of 'proving yourself' without first informing the instructor?

    Seems a bit one sided and egotistical to me. The instructor thought you were there with the good intentions of learning and you were actually there to put people down.

    So you lied.

    Sorry to be blunt but thats just me.

  10. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    Actualy i was there to learn i took in the whole class and it wasnt until the sparring that i showed i new more than mentioned plus as i said i only slowly stepped forward and straight punched the students to see what they would do none of them blocked this annoyed the instructor who full on attacked me but i guess he had good intentions especialy when he kicked me in the head when i turned my back...
    And to be honest you get more attitude if you say youve done something and i wasnt there to actualy fight just see how things worked
  11. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    I'm not surprised that you caught most of them with the straight up punch to the head, as I've seen alot of TKD classes where the instructor seems to think that your guard should be around your waist & you should prance around with one leg up in sidekick chamber position. I actively teach & my students use trapping & rolling punch in free sparring, it integrates with TKD very well & I'm a huge fan of Wing Chun.
    You're missing my point Tai-Gip. I agree, if someone straight off throws a high section leg technique at you it's rather easy to counter it. My point is that too many people don't understand how to properly employ leg techniques in combination. If I'm going to hit you in the head with a turning kick you're going to have
    A/ Been suckered into dropping the guard down as you're expecting something else, or
    B/ Been hurtling backwards after being impaled on several hand techniques.
    Employed properly combination techniques should each add power to the next & flow very quickly, being evasive & elusive to track. As I said, just coz they've got TKD on their back, doesn't mean that they're automatically a good exponant of kicking.

    By the way, to make the kitten fart duck tape up its mouth & squeeze it very hard (afterwards the kitten goes well with some spring onions & chilli sauce):D
  12. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    I knew your devotion to this forum had taken a sinister twist!!

    I dunno kids these days, with thier short haircuts!!!
  13. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    lol Mark
    and i get your point which means that you can make anything work which i also said but basing it on a worst case scenarion where the person your into it with has skills you arnt going to be able to just set them up if your lucky you wont put yourself out of position so they take you out......
    But if you do get a strike that allows you a combination of follow up strikes a spinning kick would not be the most recomended because as i said before (actualy i said you would have to agree.) they take a lot longer....... basicaly ask yourself how much time and opertunity you will allow someone who has intentions to seriously hurt you
  14. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    I hate all this talk of someone having "skills". At the end of the day if my ability to fake kicks and misdirection techniques are better than your ability not to get suckered into them then I have the advantage.

    If it is the opposite way around and the attacker is not drawn into kicks then Mark has already said that you wouldn't risk a high section technique.

    The same goes for your comment about spinning kicks, you are only going to use them if you have the time. Which is a judgement call on your behalf.

    Now I'm not the greatest fighter the world has ever produced but I can judge fairly accuarately whether or not my choice of kick is going to make it or not, but that only comes with experience.

    As TKD's ist run into this situation every time they spar, since kicking techniques above the waist is very prominent in competition sparring, then we are going to have (generally) a larger experience base for the decision we make.

    I remember you saying you did a majority of MA's do you not find your time in TKD gave you this?
  15. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    ok and so do kickboxers ,mau thai hapkido...etc its just as you are well aware in training you use the big kabosh spinning kicks because ..A, youve been training a while and can now do them well... B, they look good and are fun to do...
    My point was that if your in the **** you wouldnt use them because of the time taken .
    I know this seems like a pick on style but when i was training in tkd my instuctor taught them but also gave us the general rundown as in use when can ...not a gaurenteed spinning kicks where more of a "block" to an attack as in attacker steps in with lunge punch tkd practitioner steps to open side and with spinning kick knocks attacker sensless
    What im refering to is a your all ready into it situation against some guy where the time you take to make the spinning kick gets you smacked in the back of the head... in most tkd its illegal to kick in the back !!!
    Why ? is it because it to open and to easy...?
    Jumping spin kicks where a fave of mine my best was four sidekicks head height then a spinning round knee (as in left side then right then left then right then spin left knee ,side kicks done in a left side up position)all in the air about 6 foot up on a bag (where its nice and easy) so dont get me wrong i love them its just that practically they are slow its factual... as in whats faster a straight or a round.. and yes of course its situation based but once again im talking worst case scenario
    next class have a look yourself at howmuch time you wait for when the person you spar spins as opposed to a snap round or front
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2003
  16. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Errr I think you missed my point,

    I'm pointing out you shouldn't be doing a spinning kick if the guy is in a state which they can reply from. Why would I turn my back on my opponent if he could reply? I don't teach my students that and would chastise any instructor for teaching this philosophy.

    As for your point about not being allowed to kick to the back in TKD....

    In my class, and I'm sure Mark's is the same, anybody caught sending out slow spinning kicks gets a wake up call. Whether it be sidestepping and reverse turning kicking thier head off, sliding in and knocking them off balance using the hips and just pure and simple driving over them with a blitz of punches chances are students learn the hard way.
  17. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    The point Mr Bojangles is that as im Sure Andy will agree they are a long move and are considered slow it dosnt have to be sloppy

    You tell me yourself what is quicker a straight , a round, or a spinning kick in Kung fu classes you get punished just for doing the kick because your fighting someone who is used to lighting attacks at elbow range where you have little time to respond if you spun you where toast and i realy wasnt that bad at them.
    In karate i would cop a round to the head and in mau thai a knee

    I happen to think in tkd you realy learn to kick but as in all styles they seem to have moves that look great but arnt what you would use in a fight

    I think the problem is they are often taught as part of the training syllabus without the benefit of corect situation application as in everything its all about position and they should be taught more as a moving counter to a commited attack the same way stances are taught in wushu as a counter or the kicking in capoiera

    students start doing them regularly without realising its all a positional response to the attack not just a sparring technique or a more learned move .

    And in case i sound like an arrogant fool i dont mean to be just voicing an opinion:) :) :eek:
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2003
  18. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Err... again you are sidetracking from the point I made.

    Never said a spinning tech was the fastest or did I say it was the first choice move.

    I said it shouldn't be used unless the attacker can't reply i.e. reeling.

    Before we discuss anythng about syllabus, do you agree with or contend this point?

    One thing at a time. :D
  19. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    Hmm but you were replying to my point about a serious situation where i suggested a spin would get you hurt im talking about a serious situation
    for all i care you could get in your car and run them over when they are reeling
    but in a life threatening situation no... no i dont suggest a spinning kick no matter how "reeling they are" if you watch boxing or the like you see some people stop reeling damn fast and in my opinion there is still to much time just knee or elbow or submision the spinning kick i consider to flashy a "finishing" move

    i wouldnt use it unless the attacker was a goose .... or did tkd ...:D
  20. tai-gip

    tai-gip New Member

    catch you tomorrow
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