What's wrong with High Kicks?

Just like every martial art, every kick has its place....

As Mark and Kwan Jang posted .... "Every technique is the 'right' technique, as long as you use it at the 'right' time"

What is wrong with High Kicks? .... I believe the question should be what is wrong with the person throwing the high kick .... the approaches to throwing such a kick are too various. The High kick itself is quite devastating ... "goo-nite goo-bye & tankU "

 

What is wrong with High Kicks? .... I believe the question should be what is wrong with the person throwing the high kick .... [/B][/QUOTE]


You put that really well KickChick, he problem is that most of the people who critisise kicking don't REALLY understand the techniques they are critisising properly.
When I first started training in TaeKwon-Do back in the early 80's very few people had heard of it in our area of Scotland, & the local Karate 'invited' us down to 'train' with them. What they had basically said to their students is that we were a bunch of ballet dancers & our kicks wouldn't work against 'good strong karate'. I was about green tags at the time. We went through their non existant warm up without breaking a sweat, did some basics, & then it was sparring. I was up against their instructor, & about 15 seconds into sparring with him knocked him out cold with axe kick! He was a good sport, as when he came around he got up & asked me what the hell I'd hit him with, & to show him it. He'd never seen axe kick before. My fellow coloured belts, & my instructors Mr Wallace & Mr McNairn were having similar experiences whilst sparring.
The reason I'm telling this story is that it illustrates what I think is the main problem & what Kickchick put so nicely. The Karate guys thought that there was no way our kicking would work BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PROFICIENT AT IT THEMSELVES. They didn't understand just how fast & hard a high section technique can be thrown.
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not having a go at Karate, I have very good friends in Shotokan & nobody could ever say that guys like Terry O'Neill & Frank Brennan can't kick!

 

Psh. I'll just deflect it with my chi forcefield technique!

 

Heh heh heh, is that anything like my 'Fart of Fury' technique?

 

Sounds to me like you stole yoda's patented **** lightning and gave it a new name...

 

-I'm not getting into your discussion of these more "esoteric" technniques. Last night ( not realizing what I was getting myself into), I made the mistake of reading most of this thread. (not that it's bad to hear everyones opinions, but this is one never-ending thread.) I was really surprised to hear how many people were bashing high kicks. Espescially, the "in my style we'd just do this"- type of attitude. I teach both submission grappling and Braz. JJ as part of our cirriculum. I have been fortunate enough to train and share with some of the best NHB fighters and grapplers around (including Frank Shamrock, BJ Penn, Mike Swain, members of the Gracie clan and many others). I greatly respect their abilities. I am also confident that I can sprawl to counter any simple shoot or takedown any of them could throw at me. (I also KNOW that NONE of these guys would come in that directly w/o a proper set up.The same way I would set up a high kick if I opted to use one for combat). My point is that some have inferred that because they have a little grappling experience, they are immune to high kicks and pity the fool who tries to kick them. First, I am not bashing grappling, I've been doing it for decades before it became popular. Second, I'll say once again that while I do believe high kicks do have their time and place even in combat, they are not very high on my list of choices for combat. I still just have to laugh at the people who think that if they were to face say Bill Wallace, they'd just shoot in on him and then he'd be in for it. The reality is, were they to try that with any kicker of such competence, they would be trying to find their head. A truly competent kicker will generally throw kicks from kicking range, rather than punching, trapping or grappling ranges. If there is any "surprise factor" involved, it's that they could still be effective inside where kicks don't really belong. (one of Wallace's trademarks-BTW, I and many others can pull this off well,too. But, for streets or combat, I would not choose to).Angles of attack and distancing are crucial factors that any great kicker would need to factor in to truly be effective. If you are not effective, you may be pretty(and can even have great power), but you are not a great kicker IMO. Regarding Mark Davies comment on great high kickers from non-Korean systems, it should be noted that Bill Wallace was trained in a traditional Okinawan system that never emphasized kicking in general, let alone high kicks. His other rank is in judo and was a collegiate wrestler. Many other great kickers are from other systems as well. Regardless of style, you can excel at whatever aspect that you are willing to put the required training, thinking/strategy, and work into. Some argue that being a great kicker is not worth their time or energy. I will say that it's their time and their choice. For me though, not having this aspect, is leaving a gap and a weakness. Can you be effective w/o it? I have no doubts that you definitely can. With this added aspect, it can give you one more layer to take you to the next level.

 

I suppose in actuality, it depends on personal preference and the exact dimensions of your body. Like Bruce, whom I quoted on the foot punching thing, I have arms that are nearly as long as my legs. Combine this with JKD's emphasis on good footwork behind punching, I can opt to throw punches to the head at the same range I can throw kicks to the head. Because this makes for quicker recovery and less chance of getting caught by a grappler, I really dont like to kick higher than the midsection. Its good to be ABLE to stretch your leg up that high, of course, because it means your legs will kick more freely and uninhibited by muscle-binding. But overall, a lower kick is both executed and recovered from more quickly, and theres plenty of good low targets to make use of their power on (front kick to the jewels, anyone?). Another thing is really who youre up against. If youre fighting someone drastically taller than you...I really dont see why youd want to try and hit their head with a kick when they are standing, it would be very slow to execute and recover from. But fighting someone shorter, a head kick might not be too much of a stretch from a midsection kick, especially if they are using a lower stance. Its all a situational thing. If the guy is for whatever reason fighting in a stance that bends his upper body forwards, perhaps because he is looking to wrestle, then his head makes a great target, because its closer. But most martial arts feature stances that place one leg forward from the rest of the body to some degree, which makes that the closest target. Its mostly situational. I think it's safe to say in most cases, using a kick to the head early on is pretty crazy, as your opponent is fresh and able to react to it.

 

Some good points, & all are correct, kicking to the head isn't something you will ALWAYS do & isn't ALWAYS going to be the ideal option. It's down to the situation & what is going to work. I can recover from throwing a kick just about as quickly as I can from throwing punches, but my kicking techniques are MUCH more powerful than my punches, as the quadracep, hamstring etc are far bigger & more powerful muscle groups.
It's obvious that if you're fighting someone who is much taller than you you're not going to try to kick them in the head, but against someone of average height compared to yourself its a 'finisher'.
Also, remember what I said about misunderstanding the proper application of technique? A proficient kicker is NOT going to be dumb enough to throw some big wide high kick at you as an opening technique, it's going to be part of a fighting combination & it's going to land when you're reeling from a couple of other blows.
There are times where a single high technique will be used, for instance the opponent is commited to a forehand direction technique (eg, big hook, turning kick) & reverse turning kick is used as the counter with the spin being part of the block. This counter is instinctive & works both in sparring & self defence, & I have used it several times myself when attacked.
It really is horses for courses. I have several blackbelts in some very different Martial Arts, & I spent a good few years of my life dedicated to solely travelling to study Martial Arts. I also was 'lucky' enough to have been involved in various areas of employment which have allowed me to field test what I teach, & not just on the door against drunks. I am the first person to say that there is a great need for good skills at all ranges of combat, & that travelling around the TKD schools in the UK there is a real need for some instructors to buck up their ideas where realism is concerned. I also think there are people out there who do not come from a background which includes good kicking skills. I made sure that I put effort into learning good grappling / in-fighting / weapons skills, maybe before some martial artists critisise leg technicians they should find a GOOD instructor of an art that emphasises kicking & spend a decent amount of time learning how kicks are really employed.
One last point, remember ITF TKD is only 30% kicking, its actually 70% hands.

 

I have been told you should use your arms and legs with equal ease power and balance therefore any situation where a kick is of no benefit then neither would be a hand strike
And just as you can twist /pullback your arm so you should be able to do with your kicks, which means any kick where you lean and your balance is not centered as it is for hands should not be considered a correct technique though it may be fun and look good
Therefore the aim is to be able to kick without moving your shoulders at all treating one leg exactly as an arm in terms of manouverability the foot of the balancing leg should always reamin toes forward as it does when you stand feet together it a hell of a lot harder but you find if someone traps a kick you still have the balance to pull it back or counter without awkwardness

 

too bad under your method of keeping the shoulders from moving, few kicks will even hurt significantly, and which kicks those are depend on how your shoulders start out. And all kicks throw you off balance, unless you've somehow got a third leg to stand on. As for punching, if you're not moving your shoulders at all when you punch, you are losing a whole LOT of power, as well as ability to recover. Just as the shoulders swing into the punch, they can be swung back to retract it. What you are talking about is non-commitment to techniques, it sounds like. And in that case, they probably wont hurt enough to keep a guy from just tackling you anyway. Anyways, Kicks cannot be developed to be as quick as punches of an equal level of development. The legs are naturally slower, even when great levels of flexibility are achieved. The kick is a powerful, longer range weapon, the punch a quicker, shorter range one, with less power. Thats just the way it is. The farther the radius of an arc, the slower it travels. Longer limbs are gonna move slower in that respect. The only folks who have arms longer than their legs, and, in that, would kick faster than they punch, do not have opposable thumbs, and I'm told are fond of bananas.

 

Good points well presented!

General Choi called TaeKwon-Do 'the human weapon'. The reason being that every technique utilised the entire body scientifically to produce the maximum amount of speed & power. When I teach kicking I make sure that my students use their arms & shoulders to provide reaction force, or in the case of reverse techniques to drive the technique. Your legs add power to your hand techniques & your upper body adds power to your leg techniques.

However, some people take that to extremes & put TOOOOO much upper body movement into their leg techniques, & in that case they will be more vulnerable to take downs & tie ups.

Just opened my full time Martial Arts Centre, & had my first set of classes in it tonight (moved all my classes out of the local sports centre). The seniors class ROCKED, so I'm on a total high!!!!!!
Waaaaaaahhhhhooooooooooooooo!!!!!

 

1/ Range?

2/ There are many ways to center your balance, and leaning is one of them. Leaning while kicking in combat has other advantages also.

3/ Legs are below the waist, arms are above it. You can punch while on two legs, but to kick, you'll at most be supported by one. Legs are not the same in terms of manouverability.

4/ I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me.
I must be missing your point.
What is it?

 

-Off the never ending topic. Mark:congrats.

 

1 ok fair point however forget range and re read
2 !
3 ok let me explain i am reffering to manouverability in terms of how free we use each we use our hands and arms for a lot more thing as in typing this post for example so we are used to the kind of control we have over them but how many people do you know who have the same control over the leg ...
4 as it says try it hmmm ok do you know the "blade" kick from karate with the edge of foot its like a knife hand strike with the foot try doing this without any pivot just using your leg as you would an arm with the same control lift your knee keeping your planted foot facing straight forward and thrust your foot out like a knife strike ...just one example same theory for front and round.... and Andy im sure you can disagree with anything but rather try thinking about it not just the things you disagree with but read it and try it because if you throw a full round kick and someone catches your leg generaly speaking your in the **** but throwing the round like this you maintain balance and keep range so if court you can use hand strikes as in a complete 50/50 fighter

i know you havnt done this before because i have only seen or heard about it in one place from a chinese man i happened across in a park when all i did was train 12 hours a day i was totaly obsessed with martial arts and working it out based on 4 2 hour classes a week ive done approximately 67 years worth of training in my 27 years so i have seen some things im not expecting to be taken as gospel but there could be some inherant benifit in what im talking about if you give it a chance
I have stopped posting what you all refer to as impossible and have retreated to what physicaly works try it and see for yourself
ive tried karate, taekwondo, mau thai, kickboxing,akido,hung gar,hapkido,kenjutsu,jujitsu,judo,wing chun,choi li fut, wong po etc ive seen things and tried moves on most of the instructors in melbourne it seemed to work but as they say it could just be me
though i dont beleive that so it must be the technique therefore if it has worked and allowed me not to loose why wouldnt it work for you who have to be more skilled than me

 

ps Kwang that was a single line post are you feeling ok
your posts usaly make mine look like a single line

 

Can I have your permission to use this as my quote??



EDIT: and this one

"based on 4 2 hour classes a week ive done approximately 67 years worth of training in my 27 years "

!

 

pps if you spin a straight rod it stay up right until it loses balance by swaying and falls condsider the human body the same way

 

Mr bojangles yes ... yes you can

 

So you're saying you can throw a full power roundhouse kick without pivoting on the supporting leg?

Incidentally, there are 168 hours in a week, you say you trained for 16 of them. What kind of Arithmetic gets you to 67 years of training?

 

Think about the anatomy behind the technique. If you don't pivot the rear foot you're kicking with closed hips which means that your own skeletal structure is making the kick decelerate, & you're turning your joints to mush! Open hips mean that the kick continues to accellerate to the focus point, & you end up with far fewer joint injuries in later life.