What's wrong with High Kicks?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by pgm316, Feb 27, 2003.

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  1. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    Exactly. Like I said earlier, there's a time & a place for every technique. There are over 3,200 techniques in General Choi's art, how come so many people only practice using a dozen or so of them? 70% of the techniques in ITF TKD are hand techniques, & we should never lose sight of that fact, simply because we like showing off the flashier ones.
    Every technique in the Martial Arts has a time & a place. I trained in Belgium with some Taijiquan guys. Most people just see Tai Chi & think of the slow soft movements. Trust me, these guys could do all those techniques frighteningly quickly & the power they could generate was frightening. TKD's high kicks, reverse tech's & flying tech's will work if you have the proficiency required & throw them at the right time. Just always remember that there are some really nasty close range & mid range tech's as well.
     
  2. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -If no one minds someone new jumping into this discussion, I'd like to give my two cents in here. I personally feel that for the street, high kicks are a bit of a high risk technique. They do have their time and place when the oppurtunity presents itself, however. In a real combat situation, I would primarily target any kicks to the knees, leg biceps, or groin. I may use a stop kick to the body or head if open. Some chambers, like the one pioneered by Bill Wallace are much faster, give better protection, and are harder to counter against. As far as grappling goes, the cirriculum I teach includes Braz. JJ(having trained w/ Ralf and Ceasar Gracie, as well as BJ Penn-the first American to win the world championships in Brazil), Submission Grappling, and NHB(ex. Frank Shamrock has trained regularly at one of our schools for years now). Kicking is a great long-range weapon, punching and trappining for mid-range, and grappling for close range. ALL are part of being a complete fighter IMO, and not as far apart as most people think.
     
  3. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Hi Kwan Jang. As a person that knows BJJ how do you feel/respond to someone thats trying to kick to your head?

    I agree its a technique we should learn to be the complete fighter, and learning to throw head kicks also teaches us the weaknesses to better defend against them, I think ;)
     
  4. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I like High kicks

    They are good party tricks - however I don't think they have a great place in self defence situations.

    I would place the Thai fighters as the kings of real life Kicks and I am not up to there high standards. There most effective and safe kick is a low one - it will mess your day up trust me!

    They dont do many high kicks as it uses more energy, leaves you open and invited trouble.

    I would never kick about the waist as the higher you go, the slower you are and less power you have!

    It invited trouble and any idiot can bundle you to the floor. Then if you have no grappling - its lights out!!!!!

    The main thing is people who can do both - in a real situation won't kick high - am I right???????????????

    SONSHU
     
  5. Ti-Kwon-Leap

    Ti-Kwon-Leap New Member

    If you poke 'em in the eyes beforehand, they'll never see the high kick coming.:rolleyes:
     
  6. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Look at the thread on here called Muai Thai Wipe outs

    Lost of mid level kicks being caught and only one on the breif look I saw having a good effect.

    These are MID level kicks - higher kicks will be slower and easier for take downs - All high kickers be warned as Thai fighters don't kick for speed or points - 100% for power and the finish!

    Good working examples!

    SONSHU
     
  7. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    I have to beg to differ Sonshu. I have used high & reverse techniques in real life many times & with great effect. Anyone who is adept at kicking will be training to counterkick, not attacking straight off with a big high section technique. High section techniques are finishing techniques, & trust me if someone hits you with one you ARE finished.
    Too many people debate this without either having used their training repeatedly in the real world, or having trained against alot of different styles & fighters. When I first started training in TKD very few people in Scotland had heard of it, so we got 'invited' to go to everyones clubs to do some 'training'. They said the same things, "ballet dancers, high kicks don't work, blah blah blah". We changed their opinions big style, & after adjusting some attitudes with several black eyes & broken noses we didn't get asked to 'train' anymore. We ended up having to fight every damn style you could think of, & a few that you couldn't.
    A good dynamic kicker can apply his techniques in lots of different situations, & will have the knowledge & experience to know when a particular technique is applicable.
    The thing is, the debate about whether high kicks work or not is kind of like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a needle. Every technique has a time & a place, the skill is in knowing when that time & place is.
     
  8. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Amen to that Mark :D

    |Cain|
     
  9. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Well, its not supposed to be a thread about why high kicks don't work. Just whats wrong with them ;) Which is quite different. I think most of us will say high kicks can be useful, but they'll also say there high risk, which seems to be the summary of the thread.

    I'd prefer to know all the weaknesses of a technique before I use it......
     
  10. Cain

    Cain New Member

    High risk as in some situations, low risk in others, a grappler may be good in countring them but will a boxer?

    High risk? Not always, depends on who you are fighting

    Like Mark said -

    |Cain|
     
  11. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Yeah good point cain.

    I could still say there high risk because you will not know the fighter. Thats what makes it high risk. How can you be sure they don't have grappling skills, you can't, but you can risk it.

    and the natural reaction of many untrained fighters is to grapple. These people should be less of a threat but they won't stay at the range needed to kick to there head. You might only have the one chance to KO them before it goes to clinch.
     
  12. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Yeah, they grapple, but are not so experienced, I would'nt use them as a first thing, more as a follow up, of course don't you always test a fighter for his reactions etc,

    if that were the case then all the striking techniques would be high risk.....

    Someone said this before, sorry don't remember -

    Should a cross be considered a high risk because of the jab?

    OR

    Why use a kick? even if it's to the knee, it's high risk.....

    The trick is in knowing how and when to use it just like everything else, nothing will be that much of a risk then....

    |Cain|
     
  13. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Kick to the Knee

    Low kicks are not high risk as they are short shar and powerful.

    Also you centre of balance does not change much, and it is only for a split second.

    Cross is a powerful shot and grapplers use it because it is safe, strong strike that does not affect your balance. It is easier to dodge a cross and block/parry it thank to grapple it.

    You grapple the target not the moving fist - if you get a moving fist its more luck than skill - unless the fighter has little or no skill.

    High kicks can work but your margin of error is bad. People who have cross trained into grappling arts will still use kicks but not so many high ones as they have seen the real risks involved!

    SONSHU
     
  14. Cain

    Cain New Member

    I am not saying the kicks to the knee or a cross is a high risk, what I am saying is that saying a high kick has a high risk is like saying that a cross or a kick to the knee is risky

    |Cain|
     
  15. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Marks Davies points

    Being a TKD fighter and as senior as you are I would expect you to have put the points on your post you did.

    However - seeing that Thai boxing link offers strength to what I was saying. Thai fighters are not reknown for there grappling experience against kicks but even they manage it well with LTD training.

    A good grappler or mainly a big strong bloak will put mid to good level high kickers in trouble. Look at UFC, Pride etc. No high kickers of any note in there and most fights rarely have a kick above waist height thrown. Reason for is it opens up your margin of error! - I don't think anyone can dispute this unless they are blind to the fact that you are less balanced when in the throws of a high kick. Do you agree.

    Then if so - the dangers (WHATS WRONG WITH HIGH KICKS) are proved!.

    Punches are safer, grappling is safer and the lower the kick the safer it is - surely everyone agrees. Only moves where you offer your back are more dangerious in my humble oppinion.

    Styles like TKD are very showy and can work as if you are kicked in the head then YOU ARE KICKED IN THE HEAD. If it works any move is good - its when it does not work. The damage limitation on a low kick or a punch etc is far less!

    You have to admit I am right on this surely - everyone - right????

    OVER TO YOU ALL.

    SONSHU
     
  16. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Yeah, a jab has hardly any power unless practiced, a cross doe'nt have any speed unless practiced, the same way a high kick does'nt have any balance UNLESS practised

    The UFC has a majority of grapplers who are good at their game, but with hardly any flexibility, on the street if I am comfronted with three people, I'd rather be a high kicker than a grappler!

    |Cain|
     
  17. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I agree Sonshu.

    Playing devils advocate, the guy on the street, yeah that angry mad person we all fear! :D won't have the take down skills of any UFC fighter (most probably) Would this alter the effectiveness/risk of the high kick?
     
  18. Mark Davies

    Mark Davies Valued Member

    Thanks Cain

    I train with a amateur boxing champion, & he hates my kicking- but my instructors taught me to motor with the hands as well (though he still has better hands than me as thats all he trains with, his kicking is coming on nicely though as is my boxing). I've always found that grapplers find it hard to cope with good high section techniques, & found it much easier to get in & about mid section techniques (I used to spar daily with a Scottish Judo champion).
    I don't think that a particular technique has a weakness, I think the weakness is in the ability of the person throwing it, & in their experience in combat. I'm sure that a good grappler would give me a spanking royaaal if I just tried to attack him straight off with a big long winded rear leg turning kick. The thing is that I have the experience not to be so stoooopid as to try that (I don't like the idea of getting beaten to death with my own limbs after they've been pulled off). I would however be happy enough to bait them to rush in from long range to grapple & hit them moving backwards with switch turning kick to the head, or jumping back kick- which is GREAT against on-rushing opponents, try blocking or grabbing it if it's done right!
    Every technique is risky if you don't use it right.
     
  19. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Cain

    Well I agree a LITTLE with you CAIN.

    ---------------------------------------------------
    Yeah, a jab has hardly any power unless practiced, a cross doe'nt have any speed unless practiced, the same way a high kick does'nt have any balance UNLESS practised
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Well a fact is you dont have very good balance when doing a high kick, this is physics and if you pick up a knock or are gently pushed you will go over, practice will only limit this a little - you increase your margin for error by doing these high risk moves.

    A Jab does need practice to be excellent but can be ok with little or no practice. A cross is good in most prats hands, and a hook can be devistating when fueled with beer if it lands!!!!!

    ---------------------------------------------------
    The UFC has a majority of grapplers who are good at their game, but with hardly any flexibility, on the street if I am comfronted with three people, I'd rather be a high kicker than a grappler!
    ---------------------------------------------------

    What you put above I would say means you would lose more often than not - on a dance floor you can do this, on a bus you cant do this, when surrounded you cant do this. Be a striker and know locks - that is street orientated fighting, it will work better on three people than a high kick any time.

    I like high kicks but know the dangers as I see it when sparing with TKD and Karate fighters.

    SONSHU
     
  20. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Mark

    The Judo champ does not train to block kicks - this is why.

    In competition he does not get hit - its a sport - we all need to be careful of this as its not fair to use this as an example.

    The boxer will until he trained with you never been kicked in the legs or the face, bet once he is wise to it your kicks will become lower and lower!

    You would not do them on a jujitsu fighter and often in the REAL world you dont have the space.

    SONSHU
     
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