What's the use?

Misdirection employed by someone skilled is hard to notice and effective. That is not the case with the attempts at misdirection found in this subforum 90% of the time.

 

Back to the OP.
There is a use here. Now, if we can put arrogance off to a side and accept that some here don't have the knowledge and people are here to have conversation. Possibly they are not getting the answers from their teachers that satisfy, or they are just making that conversation,

I learn a lot here. I understand my station in the arts leaves me open to argument. But I learn quite a bit even from those who you might think I would never want to communicate with.

There is a use here, frankly it' s getting a little dry these days. But with certain people moved on that is OK. Different pantheons of the art come to chat. E-Budo, Kutaki, MT etc etc all do seem a little drier than here.

10 years on here, I still find a reason to come back

 

Yup it has become drier over the last few years, interesting characters have come and gone. There has been a tendancy of non ninjutsu practitioners to regularly frequent the sub forum and seen genuinely interested( used to be just teen age trolls on school holidays)
A quarter of my life I've spent lurking around here, seems to be addictive
I get more out of it than MA info, some folks here seem extremely intelligent and have a very good usage of the Queens english, which I find to be benificial in the real world. Not least learning different personality types, by the feeling you get from people's posts over time.

[ group hug]

 

It doesn't sound trollish in the slightest, to me.

My interest is in seeing some flashes of subtle movement that I have experienced or seen working in violent, or conflictive situations.

It's not that I see superfluous movement that looks cool, it's that I see things that I know can produce an advantage in various stages of violence and its avoidance, amongst other related stuff.

So for me, I don't care if they can fight, because I know that a few of them at the top are carrying skills that can work when applied.

As long as they continue that, and know how to transmit it, it will become useful and confer an advantage at some point in time.

 

I don't know, Zaad. I've never had a problem spotting the bad from the good. It's not a brag, but I just don't get how others can't differentiate between something that might work in some situations, and something that would never work in any situation *COUGH* Kenpo *COUGH*

So, here's an example of something that the critics seem to think is indistinguishable from any ninjutsu videos:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53fXzI_9_5Y"]4th Degree Black Belt Test, American Kenpo Karate - YouTube[/ame]

The difference to me is, one (but only the top 0.1% of ninjutsu) has skills that could be advantageous in combat. But the 4th degree black belt in the video above, even though he displays a great deal of physical skill and control, has obviously (to me) learnt very few skills that would be advantageous in combat.

Can you see the difference (again, only talking about Hatsumi and the top Japanese guys)?

I presume that's because, at some point, the forum was too full of posters joining just to troll the ninjutsu forum that the mods were forced to create that rule.

I don't know about this stuff, because I don't train in their art.

I don't expect my opinion to count for much, but when Hannibal echoes my sentiment of the top Japanese guys having obviously and substantially different training than any others you might see on YouTube, and those who've trained the longest in the Takamatsuden also say this, plus people like Medico saying that these higher aspects are actually a thing that can be trained, then maybe people should at least entertain the prospect that's it's true?

 

No. Hearsay is no good in martial arts in regards to combative skills. To quote Zaads sig, I say "HALT! Where is your proof?"

People can say whatever they like and it doesn't make it true, they can say it until they're blue in the face and it doesn't make them right. As an example, some people claim they can feel and manipulate chi, others claim they feel the presence of God, and some people whole heartedly believe the earth is 4000 years old.

They can claim all those things, and I won't have a problem with it, it's when they want to prove it's true that conflict arises.

"Ninjutsu works in a combative environment!"

"Do you have evidence of that, or willing to provide someone else doing the same?"

"No, don't be unreasonable."


TBF though, Dunc provided a perfectly good video that I was happy with in the context it was used. No fuss, no hassle, just interesting martial arts. So I really can't thank him enough for being the first Ninja to give reasonable demonstrations.

 

But here you come to a strange crossroads, because what do you count as proof, and who's heresay do you discount as unfounded?

 

An excellent point. For me, someone who has studied in Ninjutsu and only Ninjutsu excelling in JWT's sim days (of course there is no win or lose there, it's just learning very effectively) would be good enough for me. Even better if there were a few of them always doing those kinds of drills. I suppose for weapon work you could do much the same. The great part about Sim days is that the setting is whatever you want:




The sim day could be set in Feudal Japan with Rubber Shurikens and Boken with lipstick/easy transfer paint around the edges. Doing scenarios in which the Ninjutsu practitioners actually trained for, such as sitting in seiza (sp?) opposite someone with two bodyguards, when an arguenment breaks out and you would have to escape, or perhaps kill (a target?) and then escape.


With the magic of video camera you would get an accurate idea of who hit who with the weapons first, and how you could improve on it next time.



This sounds like so much fun. OMG I WANT TO DO THIS!

 

Your description sounds an awful lot like LARPing chadderz.

 

LARPing is actually fricking awesome...just saying

 

Well, you hit the magic button, because I love Spongebob :love:

Personally, I have a way of deciding on the validity of hersay:

1. Listening carefully to people who have experience in surviving violent situations (not limited to hard fighting men, but also survivors of abuse and people who have escaped violence without throwing a punch).

2. Comparing that to my own limited experience of what works when people really want to hurt me.

For my own edification I have a three tier system:

1. Sparring against people in my own system.

2. Sparring against people from other systems.

3. Actually fighting people.

Spongebob has it right: you need to have imagination to see the difference between Kenpo and Ninjutsu, but imaginings based in reality.

Once more for clarity: I don't have to be convinced of someone's fighting ability to glean something I feel is useful from them.

 

It really does, but that's the environment that the skill set is supposed to be used in as far as I'm aware. It makes the most sense.

 

:topic:

I forgot to PM you this; not only is it LARPING and epic metal, it's also set in Calgary

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXb0Qx4ApFs"]Lloyd the Conqueror Trailer - YouTube[/ame]

 

True, but fighting ability has to be prevalent in a system that claims fighting ability.

 

Scout Snipers in the Marine Corps LARP. We get dressed up in special suits, put a guy at the end of a field with powerful binoculars and call him the "enemy." Then we try to make our way within "firing range" through the brush to shoot a blank round at him, identify a sign he holds up so everyone is sure you actually see him, and then shoot again. All this while the "enemy" is trying to spot you.

This is a major part of training too, not some random thing. It's called stalking. You don't need to be training as a sniper in the military to get good at this or learn the most efficient ways to do it (although being taught what they are helps a little(LOT)). All you need is a buddy with a good set of binoculars, a rifle, and some blank rounds, and a walker to tell the "enemy" if he's correct in spotting you. Record your success rate on the different techniques you try, and you just might figure out how to move, camouflage, and not disturb your surroundings all on your own. LARPing can be a great tool to use.

 

Until... DayZ!

 

Meh, not to provoke interesting discussion on an internet forum...

If we were actually together in a room, then I'd agree, but I get what I can from the format.

 

David - Most videos when i've made seraches on ninjutsu stuff in threads leads to all the horribly bad practitioners
I have a hard time finding videos of many of the top japanese guys and as seen in the ganseki nage thread, very few who frequent this sub-forum will provide clips and some explanation of what is going on.

i have no doubt that subtle aspects develop over time - ive seen this more than on MAP time and again (especially the tai chi and chinese wrestling threads that hannibal is fond of)

the cross art discussion im talking about is stuff like YKW trying to relate techniques to his style, posters can be quite dismissive.
all we are doing is talking about a style or technique - another perspective on this just provides us with a deeper understanding of that technique even its not the application you want, its interesting to discuss

 

As far as I was taught (briefly and in a club that is widely discredited) Ninjutsu is used best in those situations, such as Seiza with two people facing each other with weapons such as the Tanto, Shuriken and Katanas. Sometimes one with and one without, sometimes both, sometimes a table in between them.

It might be LARPing but it would validate Ninjutsu for me beyond anything I've seen since.

 

Yes, there can be a bit of a snooty attitude from some around here. Also, YKW seems to be dismissed quite often in any forum, which is a shame.

For instance (I was too busy to post at the time to say...), I noticed YKW post something very interesting about "dynamic balance" or somesuch - basically a recipe for running takedowns, which Simon was very dismissive of (reminder to me: ask YKW about it... )

Also, PR did get around to giving a fairly in-depth answer to YKW's questions.

I feel there is more in-depth talk of technique in the Ninjutsu forum than any other. It's one of the reasons I hang around here.