What's the use?

That's another point. I wonder how many Japanese forums there are on Ninjutsu, that speak Japanese already?

 

I don't get angry at not understanding something. I get irked at the attempts at misdirection, accusations of trolling because somebody is prying for answers they can understand, belittling comments, and claims to authority or claims that you'll never understand unless you do certain things (often completely and audaciously extreme). The mystical rhetoric that often accompanies some explanations kind of irks me a bit too, as it does with other MA discussed on the forum. I comment the same way towards those as I would here in this sub forum.

 

Hehe...

Yeah, because the last thing you'd expect from a ninja is misdirection!

 

Seriousness: This isn't the first time this comment has been presented to me in a ninjutsu thread and I'll reply to it in the same way. I get it, it's funny, but it's not really constructive to the issue here.

Me being normal: lol tou-che (I don't know how to type accent marks, cut me a break!)

 

Sneakiness and the whole hiding-things-in-the-light-that-are-only-apparent-to-those-with-eyes-to-see are apparently hallmarks of the Takamatsuden, so I get genuinely confused at people's frustration at it.

 

Posting again to this quoted because nobody reads edited posts.

If this is the reason for some, would that not be, in a way, the essence of trolling as far as internet/forum etiquette is concerned? While it isn't the case in many posts, and regardless of your statement being made in jest, there are some posts that seem to take the approach of the quoted text.

 

You still don't get it obviously...

I am not saying you need to embark on a life journey of anything. I am saying that you will definitely not be able to understand a traditional Japanese art(be it martial or whatever) without some understanding of Japanese history, culture, and society. When I say some understanding, I do not mean reading books in translation or attending classes given by Western lecturers or even dating a Japanese girl for awhile.

Without some knowledge of the language, etiquette, and manners, you won't even get far past the front door(if you aren't turned away outright).

You may think that way because you think that the ninjutsu forum is or should be catered to explaining ninjutsu to people who don't have a clue about it. Isn't that what the FAQs are for?

So again, you don't like something and you feel people should change to accommodate you?:dunno: You want us to somehow change the way we were taught and the language used to explain things in these arts to make you feel more at home? If there was a ton of good information(scholarly research, etc) in the public domain, plenty of Japanese masters teaching the art abroad, and a long tradition of familiarity with ninjutsu a la judo or karate, the issues would be completely different. However, as that is not the case, it is what it is.

Over the years I have been posting, I have tried to be as accurate and truthful as possible concerning things related to the Takamatsuden, but I am not a tour guide or somebody trying to make a name for myself or sell anybody anything. I've always stated how people can go about getting real information on ninjutsu but I understand that this approach isn't for everyone. As that is the only true way to get any real knowledge on the subject however, it will appear that most will therefore be kept away from that knowledge and understanding. It's not my fault so don't shoot the messenger.:woo:

 

Could you please not write a full reply within a quote box to my quotes. From me to you, it makes it extremely tedious and frustrating to have to copy/paste everything and make the edits without mistake in the small box I can write in for a post. It would be much easier if you would simply break my posts up into quotes and then write your text unquoted so I can reply to them with ease. The method of your post/quote format adds an extra 10 minutes to my reply, most of which is simply finding your own text and formatting my reply with the commands. You cannot quote a quote box, if you weren't aware of this.

 

Some of the criticisms of this forum are the reason I like it.

I think of the technical discussions here as like a MA cryptic crossword. I actually have to engage my brain to figure out what people are on about.

Like many people, I've never seen a video of someone in the Takamatsuden and thought "wow, they're obviously a great fighter".

But, I have seen videos of Hatsumi and his "inner circle" students displaying subtleties of motion, sometimes superfluous to what is ostensibly being displayed, that have made me think "wow, some of the guys at the top have been taught to a very high level of body control and understand manipulating perception in the context of conflict.

Can they apply that in a live situation? I have no idea.

But, having seen and felt what it is like to have those things applied live, I do know that they are of value, and of great interest to me.

 

At least it's nice to see mods being mods and trolls being trolls again, it was confusing for a while, the blood moon is passing.

 

So is "applying it to a live situation" high on your list of priorities? Or is it more of the "art and body manipulation" that you're interested in?

 

Please don't close the thread before I reply to PR. I have been working on it for 20 minutes now and would probably go drown myself if I clicked "submit" only to have the "thread locked" window pop up. :cry:

 

Both.

I love watching highly-skilled circus performers as much as martial artists.

I prefer watching Jackie Chan to Bruce Lee for the same reason.

But it's a beautiful thing when the two meet

 

Language is not as significant a barrier as you're making it out to be. When language is an issue, it often requires more words in translation to get the meaning across. If language were as significant a barrier as you are making it out to be, communication across languages would be nearly impossible.

Etiquette and manners I understand. I again bring up MOD Simon's post about there being a reason for a ninjutsu forum if this is the case. The whole forum has it's own code of conduct that needs to be adhered to. Your argument seems to define the code of conduct for ninjutsu to be incompatible with MAP's own. I understand what you're saying, but it's not beneficial to anyone in the sub-forum due to the goals of MAP and the community. The goals of MAP do not need to adhere to the values of ninjutsu forum, the ninjutsu forum is supposed to adhere to the goals of MAP. If this cannot be remedied, then what is the point of having this sub-forum?

This is an admittance to an inability to discern content/context of posts based on bias, which may very well be based in the history of this sub-forum. It's not an argument that differs much from racism or xenophobia, often giving birth to words like "outsiders." I get that there are people who come on just to troll and they are often easily recognized. This isn't unique to the ninjutsu forum though, and plenty of people have been banned as a result. However, there are plenty of situations in which this hasn't been the case but the reaction to a non-trolling post treating it as a trolling post occurs. The long lasting ramifications of resentment towards "outsiders" seems to be an appropriate conclusion here.

Before I reply, how is this not a snipe at my character? It seems far fetched that your mention of manga, and the clear interest I have in manga given my username and other discussions on MAP, is just a coincidence. I also like Warhammer but have never played, enjoy weight lifting but am not a meat head, like star trek but am not a trekkie, etc..

Most of the history I am interested in or have taken formal classes in tend to be on the global scale, diving into regional context to explain the larger context of world events. This often leaves the reality of what a culture is based on their actions rather than their expressed ideals. There has been no affluent, industrialized nation that hasn't gotten where they are without stepping on the feet of others. That includes Japan. When I make my statements it is generally based on the acceptable means of communication an dispensing of information in a way that is generally understood across the globe. We're not talking about what spoon to use or what prefix is appropriate, we're talking about discussing martial arts. If the ideals and culture of ninjutsu are so secretive that they cannot be discussed then I once again ask the question of a need for such a sub forum?

You're a great example.

You do realize many historians consider that Japan initiated WWII first (1931-Manchuria) and that they oppressed dissent within their own country quite brutally. That they committed atrocities in China, killed POWs, had sex slaves, had the Bataan Death March, exploited other smaller nations, etc.. You can make all the anti-west accusations you want and I will most likely agree with you! That doesn't mean I think there is any moral high ground for you to stand on. Japan has done everything to others that the west has done.

You try to the best of your ability. Post #62 is my reply to the issues that arise.

I don't see how I am being annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand. All they would need to know is how to communicate, nothing more. The kinks would work themselves out.

This is MAP, a forum with the intent to discuss information on martial arts culture, methods, and practices. The ninjutsu forum doesn't get special attention because it is ninjutsu. It gets special attention because of issues with trolling in the past, not on the current subject of discussion. If you came over to the boxing forum and started asking questions and telling me how you did things in ninjutsu, I would explain to the best of my ability the differences as well as the culture of boxing. None of it would entail secrets or misleading commentary, nor would it spin out of control into a discussion on how you just won't understand. At some point, if you wanted to know what it was like to really train in boxing, then it would be inevitable that I say "go try it out!" This comment would be encouraging, not condescending as is often found here.

You seem to think a sub-forum doesn't fall under the rules of the main forum. The sub-forms serve the purpose of practitioners in that MA to discuss their training as well as dispensing information to people who are interested in that martial art. You seem to only believe the former applies to ninjutsu.

If I am incorrect in this interpretation, may a MOD correct me.

If this is how it is, what use is the sub-forum. You are not only ostracizing people who do not practice ninjutsu and wish to learn about it, but also people who don't learn ninjutsu the way you learn ninjutsu.

Such noble sentiments. Isn't MAP designed to help assist in this endeavor though? Shouldn't those who practice ninjutsu, and decided to willingly join this forum under the ToS and its mission statement feel obligated to share? I get what I described in post #62 a lot, which doesn't seem to be working well with MAP. You're supposed to be able to get it here, or get direction on how to get it, not be told you're a troll and scoffed at. MOD Ap Oweyn had a much more articulate reply to this than I.

 

Jackie Chan Legend of the Drunken Master (1996) is one of my favourite films.

However, if actual live combat ability is high on your priorities list, then why would you be interested in Ninjutsu? Being that it's an art that at most times is questionably effective?

I realise this post seems kind of trollish but its an honest question. I'm not looking to poke fun at anyone.

 

David Harrison - if in the MMA sub-forum, you asked about GnP a video would usually be provided to illustrate it

ninjutsu videos are hard to come by of acceptable quality however

im not sure why this sub-forum exists;
- noobs cant use it cos of the post limit. most are ridiculed or their teachers called amateurs because they are enthusiastic and post videos.
- people within the art are told that they havent learnt legit stuff or they havent reached the level to know about certain things
- people involved in different arts are told that the art is very complex and must be studied to understand
- cross art discussion is difficult because of lack of videos and the strange riddle like posting style of this sub-forum that people not used to reading it are confused by

 

Are their points valid? If yes, then the ninjas needn't get so worked up. If no, then they should be fairly easy to refute one would think.