Okay, so for those who haven't caught any of my previous posts, here's a little background info on me: I'm 28 and have dabbled in martial arts since I was 7 (which, at 7, that meant watching MA films and trying to replicate the moves). When I was around 11, I enrolled in an ATA TKD school, was in for about a year and a half, and made it to blue belt. Since then, I've played around with wushu, judo, and MT. These days, I'm an MMA fanatic and regularly freelance for Ultimate MMA magazine (with two articles in the current issue). Nevertheless, my heart, I think, is with the "traditional martial arts" as they're frequently called. So I decided I'd give TKD another chance, this time going with an ITF school, since (at least according to the sparring rules) it's a little more kickboxing-esque than WTF. I have since had some mixed experiences. For one, I'm certain my current instructors (a husband and wife team) are frustrated with me. I have gently pushed the idea that, in order to be a respected combat sport, TKD will have to be trained like one. Patterns, step sparring, etc is cool and all but hard sparring is an essential part of any legitimate curriculum and they don't seem to understand that. To drive my point home, regarding what I feel TKD should be striving for, I sent my instructor a link to a Daido Juku vid on YouTube and got no response back. I know she was just sitting there thinking, "Not this again." The truth is that I've never seen anyone spar--even once--in my TKD class, and we have white belts mixed with colored belts. In fact, I asked a couple of guys who had been there a few months if they had ever seen sparring and they said, "Only at testing." WTF?!?!?! Today I tested for my yellow belt. It was a sobering experience. TKDists as high up as red belt were testing today and, while patterns, step sparring, and board breaking were a part of the testing, straight up sparring was not. Really? A red belt can test without having to actually hit anyone? Is it just me, or is this ridiculous? And this is certainly not even the fault of my individual school, it's the fault of the USTF, which was given birth at the order of Gen. Choi himself. At this point, I feel somewhat lost. I don't consider myself a particularly violent person--I haven't been in a "real fight" since I was 15--but I want to hit someone in the face. I want to hit them hard, and get hit hard, and shake hands at the end. I'm sure many here are thinking, "Well just do MT" or some similar full-contact style, but for some reason I still believe that TKD can be something ELSE. It can stand beside, say, Kyokushin as a fighting art. The techniques are there . . . not only kicks and punches, but even rudimentary grappling. But the pressure will have to be turned up. I suppose I will go check out some other instructors and see how they run their classes. I hear there are some better ones in the area. But I do feel a bit discouraged. If I actually make it high enough in rank to start my school, our school patch will be a grim reaper in a TKD uniform, with an evil grin and red, glowing eyes. That will say it all about what we're about. Thoughts?
i think this kind of itf tkd would be more to your liking? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eir4XGg4w5A"]YouTube- Itf taekwondo amazing knockout[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfq9NDgbGqA"]YouTube- TKD ITF Katya Solovey_hl[/ame]
This is odd IMO. I've never seen a taekwondo dojang, regardless of faction, which didn't spar at the end of every class.
Yep, that's pretty much it. You're on point for sure. In fact, I'll see your vid and raise you one: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43xm436icfM"]YouTube- Taekwon-do ITF - Eddie Pavlenko[/ame]
Dude, even years ago when I was involved with the ATA, sparring was a pretty regular thing. I am actually completely flabbergasted. I'm REALLY hoping that visiting a couple of other schools will open me up to a wider world, but after so many disappointments with martial arts in general I'm not getting my hopes up.
Technically sparring in the ITF starts at day 1. Original TKD was given to us as a means of SD & it was highly effective. Sadly far too many TKD schools are simply McDojangs. There are many reasons for this. The empahsis on the sport aspect is a BIG one. Then of course there is the constant fanatical analysis of the patterns & how they are to be done, with concentration on so much minute detail that has little to do with SD & more to do with adhering to some standard for again, sport competion! Throw in all the insurance regs & the fact that since TKD became the worlds most popular MA, it has produced far too many unqualified BBs that branch out to teach, when they weren't really taught much themselves, other than to make students feel good. In the early days you felt good when you could defend yourself! When someone joins an ITF school they should start sparring from the start. However far too many do not realize how the system of sparring is suppossed to be taught. There are 6 types of sparring in the ITF, starting with pre-arranged sparring. Free sparring comes in at blue belt level & free indicates that opponents, yes opponents, not players or partners, (there is a difference) are FREE to actually use all available techniques for both attack & defense. Of course free sparring, HooSinSul & training must take place under as realistic conditions as possible. Few do this & few realize that free sparring is not tournament sparring. If we remember the roots of TKD, which was 1st developed in the RoK Military as a MMA for SD, then we may see less of these problems. I am sorry for your bad experience. Maybe you should direct your instructors to this thread
Thanks for this post. I've read enough of your posts to know that I am not as knowledgeable about the situation as you are, but I've done a good bit of homework and agree that TKD as it was laid out by the General is not really TKD as its taught in many schools today. I sent an e-mail to another school recently and asked them if sparring was emphasized much in their school, and they said, "Sparring's not emphasized much. We teach a traditional curriculum focusing on patterns and technique." I thought I was going to tear my hair out.
Oh, I'm working on it, believe me. There are some small issues, though. For one, many of the other schools are quite a ways away and I haven't owned a car in 5 years, so getting there would be an impossibility unless I bite the bullet and drop back into the world of gas prices and insurance costs. For another, I'm honestly skeptical that I'd go to one of these other schools and find much that is different. Maybe I'm just bitter and jaded at this point. I have actually even considered switching to WTF, but their sparring rules drive me insane.
Yes we always spar at the end of class (10 to 15 minutes). And we aren't some 'hardcore' school...it has always been that way since I was a kid annoying the adults. Again I consider our school far from 'hardcore'. We've plenty of kids, plenty of 'older adults'. Yet we've had transfers from WTF, Karate, etc (relatively high ranking) and I've never had any of them complain and most stick around.
Does it have to be TKD? Karate, kickboxing, boxing, even cross training in one so you're getting what you need?
I would be thrilled to find a kyokushin, or even better a daido juku/kudo, school but we don't have anything like that in Utah. There is a Muso-Kai school, which was created by an ex-kyokushin guy, and it's supposed to be full contact with face punches allowed, but with the classes I sat in on it seems that in reality they're pretty limited on the contact/allowable techniques in sparring, and they also don't really have other schools to compete against, so the competition aspect is pretty much non-existent. Shotokan and other traditional forms don't work for me because I don't like point sparring. That's another reason I targeted ITF schools in the first place: continuous sparring. I did some MT classes, and it was cool, but I missed the sort of traditional element that karate/TKD etc can offer. Boxing could be cool, but again it lacks that traditional element, and I also like to kick. Thanks for the suggestions, though.
No, not at all, unfortunately. And even if I did, I would have a philosophical objection to even having to. I feel that I shouldn't HAVE to. TKD should be able to give me everything I need and if I'm having to go somewhere to get it, then there's something wrong. Furthermore, what's the point of even doing TKD? Also, if I were to crosstrain, it would almost certainly be in judo, so that I could have both solid striking and grappling skills.
I get your point and I don't think you're on your own. TKDMitch here on Map has the sort of club you're looking for. I think you may be a little ahead of your time
Yeah, I've talked back and forth a little with Mitch and, from what I've gathered, I'd love to train with him. I'm surprised that MMA's and MT's explosion in popularity hasn't produced faster changes in the TMA world.
Many are just ignoring it hoping it'll go away. Things seem to be changing but look at it from your instructors point of view. He makes enough money without changing, why move outside the comfort zone?
i think it might have more to do with the fact that those TMA instructors that are already seriously geared towards real-world application either already do that kind of training or simply don't care, while those given over to the sporting side tend to prefer light(er) contact stuff and stick to fomenting their own rulesets. both sides also have the people that are appalled at humans hitting each other for money, or consider it dishonorable, or not martial, and other crap like that, and actively hate MMA, boxing, kickboxing and all related sports (except judo. judo is cool).
The trouble with TKD is also it's good point. Everyone can do it. Unfortunately nearly every club adopts this policy. Change the art to a much more realistic contact level and you lose your student base. You might gain a new one given time but it's a big risk if your living depends on it.
