Whats better bagwork or drills?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Maryreade1234, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    Sanda rules would favour a "clean" throw, from what I recall it was 2 or 3 points for a takedown, but only 1 if you also land on the floor or on top.
    So a double leg is often favoured so you can throw and disengage.
    I wonder if Must Thai has similar scoring?

    I found this hard to reprogram coming from years of judo that it was favourable to throw and land on top in strong position (and also wind the opponent).
     
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Even in Sanda, or SC, you may land on top of your opponent. You pretend that you can't remain your balance. If you can knock the wind out of your opponent, you may have an easy round after that.

    It's easier to do this.

    [​IMG]

    It's harder to do this.

    [​IMG]
     
    axelb likes this.
  3. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    ?

     
    Grond likes this.
  4. naaltu61

    naaltu61 Banned Banned

    Sorry for getting philosophical but the will to train is everything, and what I'm trying to say is even questioning "should I A or B" is a sure sign you're not on autopilot yet. It's fine to ask this question to a coach or instructor, but to mull it inside your noggin? Brain fog and analysis paralysis. :)
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I find that a bit strange. You would ask your instructor without giving it any consideration yourself? I think it's better to take some ownership of your training rather than blindly follow other people.
     
  6. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I don't know about philosophy or autopilot-whatever that is-but I think Grond pretty much made the case of intelligent training in post #7---
     
    Grond and David Harrison like this.
  7. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I think YOUR point is valid. That such adaptations are necessary in the one case and hypothetically already done in the other. What John said, though, was that neither a boxing coach nor wrestling coach would be able to teach you how to meld the two because one doesn't understand the other. Where MMA and other formats have, as you point out, shown us clear examples of trainers who have done just that. Yes, each has to be modified to flow more smoothly into the other. The problem with John's point, to my mind, is that style is weighted more heavily than person in the equation. "Boxing doesn't do X" and "wrestling doesn't do Y." It leaves no room for "Coach Z understands both boxing and wrestling, and is therefore qualified to see and make the necessary adaptations."

    That's the trouble with mythologizing the past. If various styles of kung fu have already made the synthesis, it was only because people qualified to do so made the adaptations necessary. The fact that those people were from a long time ago has no bearing on the basic logic, while simultaneously lending it the credence of age and the ability to hide behind it.

    I'm not suggesting that any particular style or coach has done so. I'm simply saying that, as long as intelligent people are involved, they'll continue to explore, make changes, and create. Which is precisely what we've seen. Right? It doesn't have to have happened in bygone years. It's happened before our collective eyes. Skilled boxers began to explore wrestling and vice versa, creating the bridges and (in the process) building something new.

    You make this point yourself. You said "MMA coaches maybe." But where did those MMA coaches come from, if not from that exploration? It happened in our lifetime. I remember the first UFC very clearly, and I remember the changes that followed in the years since. It's not difficult to find MMA coaches who find their starts in "unsynthesized" styles and then built the bridges themselves.
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, the striking art and wrestling art integration has to start from:

    - A punch should follow with a pull.
    - A block should follow with an arm wrap.

    Both can link the striking art and the wrestling art nicely. Both have been trained in CMA.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2022
  9. naaltu61

    naaltu61 Banned Banned

    I'm not suggesting that any particular style or coach has done so. I'm simply saying that, as long as intelligent people are involved, they'll continue to explore, make changes, and create. Which is precisely what we've seen. Right? It doesn't have to have happened in bygone years. It's happened before our collective eyes. Skilled boxers began to explore wrestling and vice versa, creating the bridges and (in the process) building something new.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2022
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Someone puts up an excellent clip in another forum that I like to borrow here.

    I'm glad people start to train how to use punches to set up throw (such a "front cut"). This is the true striking art and wrestling art integration.

    I always believe that the "front cut" should be the 1st throwing technique used in MMA and not "single leg" or "double legs". The reason is simple. When you use "front cut", you use your arms to deal with your opponent's arms. You use leg to deal with your opponent's leg. It's more logical than to use your arms to deal with your opponent's leg/legs (distance is too far).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
    Mitch likes this.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That level change is what makes the double leg so effective in the context of MMA. It was an incredibly effective technique for ground fighters to take strikers out of their comfort zone for a long time.

    The double leg is harder to execute well, but it is also harder to defend and much harder to counter. The double leg also gives a much better position for ground and pound.

    I think in the context of MMA rules, and culture, the double leg is a much better technique. In other contexts the front cut would be the superior technique.

    I also notice that in the clip you posted the execution of the front cut was different in competition than in training. He level changes to take a knee, which makes it harder to reverse and ends with a better position for MMA, so it ends up being a similar compromise (if you see it that way) to a double leg anyway.
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The reason that I think the "front cut" should be the best bridge between the striking art and the wrestling art is:

    In striking art, your arms will contact with your opponent's arms. At that moment, if you use your leg to hook his leg, he may not be able to see it since his vision may be blocked by your arms.
     
  13. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Rulesets matter. Great post with some interesting background.

    Loving the whole discussion here folks, I have zero background in CMA but know a number of people in that sphere that I respect, so always good to learn more.
     
    axelb likes this.

Share This Page