Whats better bagwork or drills?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Maryreade1234, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    My heavy bag has some martial arts belts tied round it to represent arms so I can clinch, grip, control limbs, wrench, etc.
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  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    One of the best teaching power work on the bag, I tend to see the bag as more of a power work out than pads, both also help with timing, reaction and so on but I always tend to hit harder on the bag than pads.
    axelb and Grond like this.
  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

  4. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    He's already developed power, that video isn't of him developing power, as you said he's showcasing it for the cameras.

    To be able to hit that hard from one direction, he'd already sparred with the bag countless times. You can see it in the nuances of his movement. Not to mention, he has a trainer holding the bag. If you are only hitting the bag to hit hard, with no spotter...how are you not sparring the bag? Because it should be coming back at you, if you hit it hard at all.

    Karateka and Kung Fu don't really have a lead on "worlds hardest strikers". Boxing does, and in boxing anyone who just sits there hitting the bag without movement is getting left behind the class.

    In contrast to that one showcase, there are endless videos of every pro dancing around the bag doing the same thing. That's because when you can hit hard, the bag comes back at you, hard. That's why Foreman needs the bag held for him, or else the camera would be all over the place.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  5. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    According to your own statement, you don't use the heavy bag to its intended use or potential..which is power with movement. Not just sitting there pop pop pop. That's novice level punching.

    And, you don't use the proper protection equipment that amateur and pro boxers use (including Foreman in that video). To me that is a huge red flag that you've never been trained properly on the heavy bag.

    From my karate days I know all about this. People who train only ever TMA think they have iron fists because their always hitting things. You don't. Boxing is the premiere fist striking combat sport, so why are you not following boxings lessons? Boxing owns the heavy bag.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  6. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    See my posts above but basically, it's not advocating against cross pollination.

    It's advocating against two novice level positions: that wraps and gloves aren't important for bagwork (we know from boxing they are), and that developing "power" is all about standing there and wailing on a densely filled bag of material over and over.

    If people are going to claim that you don't need those boxing lessons, especially the ones mean to longeviate your power punching years...then those are the ones who are not pollinating with the core art that uses heavy bags, boxing, and all the history off hand injuries while training punches.

    Let me be real right now: with few exceptions, no martial arts are currently known for power punches except for full contact boxing arts. Whether eastern or western, those guys own the heavy bag usage. Other arts can only make claims about "power".

    This would be like boxers going online and claiming the ideal way to use a makiwara. If you are just gonna hit something hard over and over, you could choose anything. The heavy bag is way more valuable than that...and I challenge anyone here who thinks they have punching power to walk into a local boxing gym and test that.

    My patience with the "I don't need no wraps, I throw 1000 punches a day!" types has run short I guess. I see these people come into my gym all the time, with explosive intent and all. Cant hit the bag hard at all, but they all think they do.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    if you want to feel superior about this, go ahead. You have my permission.
  8. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I expected this kind of response from you.

    You're still not willing to accept boxings lessons around the heavy bag. So who is acting superior? You are making claims about developing punching power on the bag, but specially not wrapping or sparring the bag?? "I don't do boxing" that's what you said. In my head I hear "I don't do boxing bagwork".

    Maybe you should.

    Maybe a boxing class would help you understand better why your training is limited, and why you're not as hard a striker as you think you are. And why wraps and gloves are important once you develop any sort of power at all.
  9. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Damn, now that's a great video. Freddie Roach for the win.
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I have no interest in boxing. So I don’t train it. Really, that is about it. I don’t understand where the confusion comes from. I don’t understand why you think I have an obligation to measure what I do against boxing. They are two different things. They don’t compare in any clear and objective way. I don’t care if a boxer can or cannot hit harder than I can. I don’t believe I ever made a claim on that, one way or the other. My suspicion is that some can, some cannot, and there are a myriad of reasons for it.

    I would never suggest that you train what I do because I understand you aren’t interested in it and you have found something else that speaks to you. I am all for it. You should do what makes you happy, and all the best to you. We all need to follow the path that fits us best. That goes for you and for me and for everyone else. I would never insist that you work on the heavy bag the way I do, without wraps and gloves, because your training is otherwise and your comfort is with wraps and gloves. So that is what you should do. Absolutely, no argument from me.

    Neither do I feel inclined to justify to you, how I train.

    Is there something else I can help you with?
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That's disingenuous. By that logic when Eliud Kipchoge goes for a run he's not "developing endurance" as he's already got endurance?
    When Eddie Hall lifts a weight he's not developing strength as he's already strong?

    Foreman (imho) is "greasing the groove" of his power generation. Maintaining that mind/body/fist connection. Sure he's powerful already (born powerful I think) but he's also honing and developing that power. Or at the very least making sure that power stays tip-top.
    The trainer (again IMHO of course) is holding the bag to stop it swinging so Foreman can concentrate on repetition of his chosen strikes. That type of training would happen even without the cameras.
    I think it was Bert Sugar who talked about hearing the impacts and walking in to see Foreman doing this sort of drill? And creating a dent in the bag as big as a salad bowl? That to me implies repetitive strikes to the same part of the bag over and over.
    It's obviously not the only way he would be using a heavy bag. Probably not even the main way and no doubt a small part of his overall training.
    But still I think it shows a way of using a heavy bag that is not the more regular "treat it as an opponent and spar with it" approach and something more akin to what Flying crane is talking about.
    There are also examples of Thai's hitting the heavy bag in a fashion that isn't "sparring" with it.
    Just throwing repetitive amounts of round kicks, teeps or knees. For conditioning, endurance, etc.

    Like it or not but the heavy bag is no longer exclusively "owned" by boxing and different arts and practitioners will adapt their use of it as they see fit.
    My heavy bag is 6ft long which in itself is unrelated to western boxing. Boxers don't need a 6ft bag. People who low kick do.

    In terms of wraps...sometimes I do...sometimes I don't.
    If I'm doing exclusively forefist punching I do. If you're hitting with power it makes sense to protect your wrists and hands.
    But If I'm doing something less boxing-centric I don't wear wraps or gloves so I can grip, pull, hammer fist, palm strike, slap etc.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think you're making strong points, I just don't see it in such absolute terms. I think there's more wiggle room for alternative uses that can still be beneficial, or even just enjoyable. At the end of the day it's still better that someone is wailing on a heavy bag than watching TV eating Cheatos.

    I also think the wraps thing is too myopic towards boxing. Learning to punch without hand protection includes modulating power to avoid injury. You're right that people who hit heavy bags without protection aren't hitting as hard as boxers, but that's kind of the point IMHO.
    Flying Crane likes this.
  13. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    To be honest, I do not believe that boxing ever “owned” the heavy bag.

    Given the vast quantity of combative methods that developed throughout human history, in probably every single culture, and the ability of humans to independently arrive at similar conclusions and develop similar implements without ever having encountered each other, it just does not strike me as believable. The heavy bag is an incredibly simple idea: a bag filled with stuffing, suspended from above, and used as a tool for developing and honing pugilistic skills. I do not believe that boxing invented it and that nobody else came up with that same idea until they stole the idea from the boxers. I just don’t buy it.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Last edited: Apr 30, 2022
  17. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Yes, a modern design was patented in the US in 1872. However, punching bags in some form or other have been around far longer than that, probably as long as people have worked to systematically develop combat skills.
  18. Pokitren

    Pokitren New Member

    So it is. People have learned to build boats and rafts independently. But I would still give the punching bag to boxing :) No pretensions that it can be used in any other sport. With or without modifications. In some sports, even another person can be the punching bag - that's a joke :)
    Grond likes this.
  19. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I will guarantee you that the first time almost anyone ever saw a heavy bag, it was for boxing training.

    Admittedly it can be found in other places now, even karate dojos and workout gyms and of course cardio kickboxing classes, and even the latter two are funny places to people watch because most people just do not know what to do with one other than what theyve seen in Rocky. Some of those franchise cardio kickboxing places have decent instructors, I've worked with a few, but your mileage may vary.

    I still believe that most people who attempt to use one, assuming they weren't taught by an experienced coach, are probably doing it wrong and will end up hurting themselves, hopefully mildly, not not always. Your hands simply did not evolve to strike things with your fists, this is a learned, long term conditioned skill that, if done improperly, leads to injury, which is why us humble boxers developed safe practices and safety equipment.

    We live in a weird age now where every striking art in history now gets compared to boxing and wrestling. If Kung Fu is to "work" it needs to beat boxing etc etc as we see is so many "how to use ... to beat boxing". I think that's part of it, in order to match up with boxing, you have to know the boxers toolkit, and the heavy bag is the closest thing to hitting an actual human being there is.

    But the thought that all these schools that set up bags also provide proper and safe instruction on their use...no way do I believe that. In the age of McDojos, I think it's more a way of providing students with some sort of validation (people like to hit things in martial arts), similar to breaking boards. If some karate dude who has hit a bag a little in his dojo walks into a real boxing gym and asks for bag training, it's going to be altogether different experience.

    That all said, as a karate guy at heart and boxer in my hands and feet, I truly do hope that all these other places with bags do try to incorporate the whole history of boxing wisdom into their bagwork, rather than try to reinvent the wheel or claim "boxing does it this way, we do it that". Any time I see people trying to differentiate their striking art from boxing, it's a red flag.
  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I disagree. But that’s fine.

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