Whats better bagwork or drills?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Maryreade1234, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Sensei Yoo-toob approves of your online training regime.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    There is something to being strong and physical as a base level of course.
    There are two youtube guys, Shane fazen of Fighttips and Jujimufu, who sparred one time and the physical strength and good proprioception of Juji was a clear advantage even with a disparity in martial skill (he also outweighed Shane by quite a bit).
    There are also quite a few videos of fit people getting good very quickly at a new skill (a back flip or cartwheel or whatever) precisely because they already have a good level of strength and body control. Their body is working for them not against them.
    But then on the flip side my wife and I watched a programme called "Strong" where teams of personal trainers and women competed in various challenges, etc.
    In one challenge they had to kick and punch a heavy bag on a wheeled pulley around a circuit. And the personal trainers, as fit and strong as they were were RUBBISH at it. Because none of them could do a round kick. They had no technique at all. The bag just bobbled around. Maybe their good fitness level would hold them on good stead for developing a good round kick if they trained it but at that time they could not bring their strength and fitness to bear.
    I've seen this first hand. Used to train with a guy who looked like blonde Superman. About 6'4", massive shoulders but lean torso and legs, v-tapered back and lats, delts and traps for days...sigh..he was dreamy. People would stare at him as he walked past. At a summer fete one time he was the anchor man on a tug of war team, he was that big and strong.
    But I (a 5'10" weedy man) could kick much harder than he could. Because he could not coordinate that strength into a target. He'd kick and hit you with just his leg. I was kicking through the target with as much venom and body mass I could get into it.
    No idea what any of that means in this context though. I seem to be contradicting myself. :)
    Diagen and Dead_pool like this.
  3. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Well it's 2021 so unless you live in the jungle or Afghanistan, or are planning to go back 500 years in a time machine, survival via martial arts conditioning isn't that important.

    Survival via good nutrition, hydration, and disciplined daily routine is far more important.

    And competiton is the best way to test skills compared to any other venue, hands down. That goes for boxing, chess, or Fortnite.
  4. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    While what you say about "meat no meal" is true (chinese saying I believe), she already has knowledge of how to execute and develop technique on a basic level as she's trained before. If she were to choose a class I would say the heavy hitting one; ap Oweyn has a good post on the first page that is in line with my thinking. Without a class one can hit a heavy bag at home which, along with a youtube video on how to kick or punch from an expert if you need the instruction, is enough for any one with eyes, a brain, a body, and basic experience in body control such as from athletic activity. I mean it's enough to be able to deliver hard hits and develop good enough technique that being stronger faster and with greater cardio would be a huge boost to your fighting power over more technique. The "superman" had no proper instruction nor practice, and probably had stiff stiff hips. One has to use their upper body to deliver the kick, raise hips and swing with upper body as the "whipper" and transmit that whipping through a hard hip rotation and leg extension at the last minute. I figured that out from seeing said kick done and hearing the loud crack of what they hit, and the sudden acceleration of the leg at the end of the motion you can't get otherwise. I did the motion in the air, loosened up cold hips, did it a few times getting better after repetitions, then practiced stopping the swing after I hit the air hard. It takes 3 minutes or less to be good at the force delivery given that you are athletic and practice body control, unless you have a really messed up hip and waist despite being "athletic". And that aside, most people are not that interested in body control or over-all athleticism, and they can't do something with power nor control.
    To add something new to the discussion:
    One of the most important parts of being a good fighter is a strong (fit) mind and the ability to sort and command body and senses. How annoying or difficult is it to count your reps when you are doing hundreds of repetitions for a difficult exercise? How difficult is it to think when exercising? Can you read a book while working out? Can you answer simple math problems? For how long? Is looking at a clock ruining your motivation to endure a hold? Can't train that with one of the classes. If you're trying to do a random sequence of exercises, footwork, or techniques and a random variation on said exercise can you do so? Most human randomness is not random at all and it requires extra effort to correct yourself and go for truly random. Point of this is that you don't have command of your mind, body and senses if sensory and mental processing is ruining your ability to act. One should be able to go from mind (or heart) to action in a finger snap, not have their power ruined by mental or mental disruptions, and have clarity in chaos. Developing this is paramount to fight success.
    How about going up against aggression, intimidation? Emotional strength and mental strength (fitness) too is involved there. How about BEING aggressive? Emotional and mental strength (fitness), no doubt. Trying to think about technique, timing, distance, or even just delivering a quick and sudden blow while under pressure? All requires strengths you can't really get from a technique class nor heavy bag training. Since the intensity of the bag work can help it has some benefits for mental and emotional strength though.
    Better to train up one's mental and emotional strengths through isolated, isolating and brutal training, and fierce rivalry or whatever else one can do. This is a fact! Doesn't make you a loner if the rivalry stays in the ring or when challenged/ one's ability is questioned (pride). This can all be toned down but the seriousness of the "uninsulated lone fighter" and the training of one should still be in the back of one's mind with an image and intensity to compare to. It's a mental and EMOTIONAL framing and visualization technique. Take classes but put in 2 hours at home for 1 hour in class.

    Survival as in streets, home invasions, or even to be healthier. Competition as in a street fight with a pro fighter is probably the best test lol but any match with a pro fighter where they don't go easy on you is the best test. The best tests are the most dangerous, that's a fact. Don't take tests lightly. If you have a glass jaw then you're not much of a fighter but warriors can't be knocked out when their life is on the line: they just die. This is part of what differentiates a sport fighter from a true fighter or warrior. This isn't a suggestion to kill people, but you have to know what to measure yourself up against.
    If you don't have any potent philosophy or foundation or essence behind your martial arts it's a curse to your progress and mindset. It means you're not taking it seriously. You think getting knocked out is serious but you should train, spar and fight as if your life is on the line or that there's a risk of being crippled, emasculated and humiliated to some degree. One isn't trying to avoid the negativity of fighting so why avoid the negativity of how you feel about failure or the threat of it, terror, shame, and so on. It's a motivator and has power. Tolerating negative emotion and acting upon them is a sign of emotional strength and courage. Empty or strong, take your pick. It's like standing up for yourself. You feel bad, you do something about it. This is a fact.
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Unlike you he was actually actively training something and so was in the same Thai boxing club as me. Getting the same level of instruction. He hadn't done as much martial arts training as I had but he was training every week.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Diagen has left MAP. Whilst we can put up with a certain amount of self-promoting nonsense, telling Mods how to do their job gets you pretty short shrift.
    axelb, Grond and Dead_pool like this.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Interesting, I think he was basing his user name on Diogenes, which is ironic because he believed in action over words, was full of cynicism for religion, and shares part of his name with genes 'generation, descent'.

    Diogenes - Wikipedia
  8. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Well Diagen is also a pretty commonly prescribed NSAID medication for things like arthritis and joint pain.

    I've never seen anyone use illuminated letters in a web post before either, so that was interesting. Diagen fancied himself some sort of monk transcribing a holy text or something.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I've just had to check that out, it's a brand of Naproxen mostly available in the states. Not available as that brand in Europe or the UK.

    You Americans and your obsession with brands!
  10. kishorzop

    kishorzop New Member

    Halls been training boxing with coaches since 2010, had his first charity match in 2012 and still doesn't look that good, hitting hard on a training partner not hitting hard back is one thing, doing it in a fight another.
  11. kishorzop

    kishorzop New Member

    Thor has been training for close to two years with a pro coach full time working technique footwork etc and doesn't look deadly or dangerous or a monster.
    techzpod mobdro download
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2022
  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I disagree with this portion of your post. What you describe is one good way of working on the bag, but using the bag to develop power is also tremendously beneficial. In my own training, my preferred routine with the heavy bag consists of working the fundamental strikes over and over, to develop that power. I don’t spar with the bag. I systematically work through the strikes, typically one at a time.
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I would say that is a training method with quickly diminishing returns. Generating power from static positions is good for beginners, but most striking in application will be dynamic and involve footwork. You need to be able to deliver power while moving. Once you know you can generate a fair amount of power I think you should move on to figuring out the best ways to apply that to a resisting opponent, which will be a process of feedback between sparring, bag work, pads and shadow boxing.

    I mean, if you enjoy it then there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it has limited utility in learning how to fight better.
  14. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Of course all of what you are saying here has its place in the big picture. I did not mean to imply otherwise. This isn’t an “either/or” choice. We all settle into our favorites, but there is room for all of it.

    i used to belong to a health club in downtown San Francisco where I would train during my lunch hour from work. They had a boxing room with a big steel framework that had eight heavy bags hanging from it. I would go In and hit the bags for an hour, and the entire apparatus would thunder and shake when I hit it.

    On occasion, a physical trainer would come in with his client and they would hit the bags too. Apparently the trainer was coaching him in boxing, although my impression was that this fellow was doing it simply for the exercise and enjoyment of the activity, and not to be a competitive boxer. This was not a competitive boxing gym.

    At any rate, this fellow would dance around the bag and punch it with his boxing glove on, and the bag would barely move, it would give a little “piff piff” sound and he would dance around and spar the bag. This was intermingled with my strikes that would boom and thunder and rattle the entire apparatus.

    My impression was that this fellow never developed his power. I could be wrong, perhaps he did that in other sessions that I didn’t witness. But I doubt it, given the performance that I saw on numerous occasions.

    As I said, this stuff all has a place in training, but developing and maintaining solid power is important, or that dancing around and sparring has no effect. If I was forced to strictly choose one over the other, I would go with power development.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2022
    David Harrison likes this.
  15. Yanli

    Yanli Banned Banned

    Bag work is fine, but you are not fully exercising the muscles to throw the punch's. Try putting wrist weights on and leg weights, then practice moving around, such as doing circles and so-on. You can practice Tai Chi or Wushu with the weights on, then practice your moves, try punching and kicking the heavy bag. After a fairly long period of time doing this, you will find a big difference in your strikes and kicks. Back in my days lol, we did not have those weights, or at least was not aware of them. I would do the moves with dumb bells, practice the long style and short style staff movements with a 10 pound weight bar, and practice iron hand with the weight bar. You swing around a 10 pound weight bar for a while, you definitely feel it in your arms, shoulders, back, and legs.
  16. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Feeling it in your arms and legs is fine, but unless you are practising uppercuts the resistance offered by ankle weights and wrist weights works the muscles in the wrong plane of motion and resistance you are better off using bands of that's your goal.
    Flying Crane and David Harrison like this.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Hey, there's nothing wrong with a difference in opinion!

    Just giving my different opinion; that hitting hard is useless unless you can do it in motion, and getting some power in motion is better than a ton of power from a set stance.

    It might take a couple of years to really be comfortable chaining muscles to maximize power from a static position, but I don't see any reason why after that you shouldn't start moving in a more applicable and realistic manner. Unless you're practicing your sucker punches/preemptive strikes?
    Flying Crane likes this.
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Though in fairness 90% of the band resistance I've seen has pretty off planes of resistance too. A lot closer than holding weights though.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Shadow boxing with weights I can see only offering the benefit of training your arms and shoulders to keep your hands up in a long fight.
    For power generation it's all wrong.
    Flying Crane and icefield like this.
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Yep hence most boxers will use medicine ball rotational throws to generate power as striking is in reality a speed strength sport relying much more on rotational core strength and power generation from the feet to the arms through the core than arm strength.

    And they use hand weights or more likely heavier than necessary gloves to train shoulder endurance and keeping the hands up as you say
    Grond, Smitfire and David Harrison like this.

Share This Page