Whats better bagwork or drills?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Maryreade1234, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. Maryreade1234

    Maryreade1234 Member

    Hello MAP gyms have opened up and iv recovered from having my metal plate removed. Now im training 5 days a week in a dutch kickboxing gym. The restrictions have been lifted however the gyms still doing small classes (6-12 ppl) and you can only go for one class a day.

    There are dutch drills (called technique classes.) and there are bagwork classes. In bagwork classes you work on combos really fast and hard on the bag and the trainer goes round and says if you are doing something really wrong.

    Technique classes seam a bit slower and weaker but its on a person and we also train counter attacks, taking hits etc.

    Both classes are 50 minutes long. With no stretching/warmup beforehand.

    Which one will help me improve more and how. Should I mix them or just do one?

    Thanks Mary
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You've just had a plate removed, i would be very wary of doing any hard and fast bag work, until it's had time to heal, otherwise you'll may fracture it again. Has your surgeon cleared you for contact training? And are the operation scars fully healed?
    Grond, Travess and axelb like this.
  3. Maryreade1234

    Maryreade1234 Member

    Surgeon said after 1 month can go back to full contact. Its been 3 months now.
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Some sage advice I heard (from Iain Abernethy) is "placement on people, power on pads". You need both really. Pads don't teach exact placement (and distance, timing, etc) and you can't hit people as hard as you can hit a bag or pad.
    Sounds like the bagwork class is more for people who want a workout and develop their power and fitness, and that's fair enough, while the technique class is about how to apply that powerful technique.
    No point having a powerful technique you can't land and no point being able to land a technique if it doesn't do anything when it lands.
    Flying Crane, Mitch, hewho and 2 others like this.
  5. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Gather together as much information as you can copies of medical notes e.t.c and CONSULT A QUALIFIED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL. A physiotherapist with a background in fighting sports would be a good place to start, a physio specialising in a high impact sport like rugby would do.

    Don't take health advice from unqualified strangers on the internet. :)
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  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If you've been cleared to start training again, and you can weight bare fully on the operated joint, but you've had problems before with rushing the return to training, I would,

    A) consult a professional if you have any doubts at all. (And don't listen to random people on the net)

    B) progressively go back to training, upping the force of your strikes / the strikes you receive over a 12 week period minimum.

    C) going back to full force striking on day one of your return is likely to not be your optimum path back, especially with your back history.

    D) make sure your fully vaccinated too.
    (Im guessing since you've had an inpatient procedure you should be)

    E) As brexit has now happened you probably need to look into the knock on effects of that, for when you return, you may have issues getting NHS elective healthcare when you come back as you've been out of the country for longer then six months.
    Grond likes this.
  7. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    A couple things I'd mention, and all assuming you're cleared to proceed, (keeping in mind some doctors will never approve of hitting things).

    First, there is never a need to do bagwork hard. The bag is there to provide some pliable resistance, and the point of bagwork is not to haul butt on it. That sort of thing is for gym lunks and rageheads. The bag is there to help you learn movement around it, you throw a combination and then move, repeat. Hopefully you have options for lighter bags but that's what I'd recommend for bagwork, go light and work on your whole body evasion, footwork. Heavier bags make this harder unless you can hit like a truck, which it sounds like you don't need to be at the present time.

    Second, and this is just personal opinion, technique classes are great but I think most people barely digest more than a fraction. For instance many times I've been shown a technique and then within a day I've already forgotten half the nuance because I didn't really have a chance to practice. That goes with anything you are shown, most people aren't just going to absorb and incorporate it on the spot. Sometimes it takes being shown the same thing 10 times and finally AHA the moment you won't ever forget it again.

    Last, drop the whole "is this better than that" mentality, imo. It's a handicap. Instead, develop a comprehensive training plan that incorporates not only both bagwork and technique but all the other important stuff like basic roadwork. Ive seen so many people "rope off" their training so to speak, and they fall into the rut of isolated repetition. They only do bagwork, and neglect muscle training, cardio, speed bag, padwork. Or worse they get to that "I am trained now, I only need to listen" and start devoting themselves to technique theory etc and suddenly they're losing speed, muscle mass, energy...it happens! People aren't superheroes, they get bored/tired/lazy.

    So any time you ask yourself "A or B" rethink it as "A today, B tomorrow, C next, back to A, back to C, finish the week at B".
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  8. Maryreade1234

    Maryreade1234 Member

    Heya I have worked my way up. Doing heavy bagwork does now feel ok. I was asking what I should focus on to get better at kickboxing. Should I get into shape and develop powerful strikes then focus on distanceing and technique or should I do the technique classes and then develop power. Or should I do bits of both mix and match.
    Dead_pool and Grond like this.
  9. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Right, the latter. But what I am saying is instead of thinking "mix", think "blend". The difference between casuals and hobbyists and people who truly evolve is their ability to no longer distinguish one part of training from another. It all matters, every bit. The mere fact that this is sticking point in your mind is the sign of a mental blockage.

    Think of it this way: Don't stop to smell the roses, the moment you do, you've stopped progress to admire just one thing along the way, when you really should be just acknowledging their beauty without pause.

    Never. Stop. Running.

    Somebody once told me that, part of a lesson about internalizing the why/how part of training. How you train should truly feel automatic, like it is breathing or sleeping. Because otherwise people get trapped. If you're truly on autopilot, 1,000 days of training will seem like a dream and before you know it, you're at day 1001.

    But if you are still stuck in your head on day 30 of wondering what's wrong/right, it will only hold you back.

    Sorry for getting philosophical but the will to train is everything, and what I'm trying to say is even questioning "should I A or B" is a sure sign you're not on autopilot yet. It's fine to ask this question to a coach or instructor, but to mull it inside your noggin? Brain fog and analysis paralysis. :)
    Dead_pool likes this.
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If your 12 weeks post op, then you can only be 8 weeks into return to training.

    If getting reinjured isn't a concern, then fitness work will get you better at fitness, skills work will get you better at skills.
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I was going to mention exactly the same quote.

    And as people have said, you need both :)
  12. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    If one focuses on technique and the other doesn't, I'd perhaps focus on the one that does first. Hitting something hard (like a bag) is either 1) directly related to proper form and technique or 2) probably doing some pretty unpleasant things to your joints. Since you're already compromised (and I say that respectfully, as someone who can relate), doing anything that runs the risk of harm is a bad plan right now. Take it slow, build strength and technique, then when you hit the bags, you're not running the risk of undoing what you've accomplished over the past 3 months.
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  13. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Training the body is most important as you naturally develop strength, durability, speed, and motor ability that allows you to pick up techniques and spontaneously accomplish something without practice or drills. Develop your handstand and handstand push ups, arm wrestle (check out devon larrett and his training), do reverse arm wrestling training (instead of curling inward you would extend outward with resistance), push ups, pull ups, and grip training (such as rotating the hands against the ground while doing handstand against the wall, wrist curls, wrist extensions, lever lifts, balancing on something in a plank). Lower body: duck walk, long "marches" (walks) with weight added on later (go for distance), kneesovertoes guy's exercises (youtube), and deadlifts with bar set low. If you check out olympic lifts are very good but go watch videos on olympic lifting and go to olympic lifting forums; you spend the first month using a broom handle to practice form, then slowly add weight because it is dangerous with bad form. It builds you up though so that's what's great about it.
    Essentially it is necessary to be a great athlete. Your motor ability will greatly improved as well meaning you can pick up techniques and apply them much better no matter if you just saw it or not. You can come up with your own situation specific moves because of the mind-body connection and reflexes as well.
    I am pretty sure I saw this post from mary before, meaning it's a repost or a bot though so who knows.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    ^ have you any real experience in martial arts or combat sports, beyond watching YouTube and reading forums?
  15. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    Yes I have experience in fighting and training for athleticism. What is the issue?
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Have you any experience in training martial arts or combat sports?

    Lifting weights and schoolyard fights are not the same thing.

    Most of your posts seem to be semi - well written nonsense, I'm just trying to see where your coming from, scammer, bot, or something else?
  17. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    When have you ever experienced a scammer or bot with my kind of "angle"? I would have to imagine the plot like well written fiction or some marketing/ entrepeneur genius. I have trained technique, footwork, sparred some, done pressure tests, have worked out technique specifically and in general for strength and endurance. Not a superman but what I say is logical and reasonable.
    I have studied martial arts quite a bit as well.
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    There are scammers here regularly with exactly your type of schtick.

    None of your posts read that you have any grounding in reality, and it's more likely that you are making this up.

    Which martial arts have you studied, how long and which grades?
  19. Diagen

    Diagen Banned Banned

    I have studied some karate, muay thai, boxing, chinese kungfus, judo, aikido. I have looked at techniques, what their training looks like, and explanations for how to do them and practiced some on my own. I'm not going to let you silence what I've said with this schtick of your own, so how about you pick apart what's wrong or the jist of the issue so I can pick your crap apart or give you a jist myself.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So you've solo trained from YouTube/books?

    Just so we are clear what your background is.

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