What would I learn in Eskrima?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Sedvan, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. Peter

    Peter Valued Member

    Hi All

    This thread is getting interesting.

    Following from Pat's scenario, a deeper stance allows body swaying, back and forth (elastiko) to move quickly out of range and back in. No steps needed and good balance maintained.

    Malcolm.

    First of all, with your Wu Shu and Aikido background, I would have expected you to fully understand the benefit of adopting a lower centre of gravity. Also, you should understand that any "stance" is really only a transition from one position to another. This has absolutely nothing to do with box splits or dancing, both of which are somewhat disrespectful to other arts and have no bearing on the question of stance height. You further comment about the hand intertwined hand movements of Kung Fu. Firstly, there are usually "hidden" motions in there, and they are can make for great enganyo's (feints) to set the person up.

    While I have only limited knowledge of the Balintawak and have the highest respect for the art, I did discuss the training methods with GM Yuli Romo, who has direct lineage to GM Anchiong Bacon via GM Joe Go. My understanding is that much of the training is geared towards "attribute development" using a range of interactive drills. Eventually, once competences and skills are developed, this becomes more of a freestyle activity. In this scenario, it may be possible to adopt a higher stance, although I have seen some Balintawak practitioners in very low stances.

    Lucy

    Get down Girl! :D :D :D

    Gumagalang

    Peter
     
  2. ritche-stl

    ritche-stl Valued Member

    >>Cat stance, horse stance, long foreward stances low sweeping back >>stance , thats what I call fancy stances.


    i think it boils down on your knowledge on how to use it. in one of the one largo mano styles i was able to experience, they effectively make use of this long forward stance to gain advantage in range. it's amazing to see how they can stay within range to hit you but you yourself can't reach him by being/using this stance.

    have a nice day to eveyone.
     
  3. ritche-stl

    ritche-stl Valued Member

    sorry should be :

    it's amazing to see how they can stay within range to hit you but you yourself can't reach him when they are in this stance.
     
  4. Peter

    Peter Valued Member

    That's the elastiko motion I just mentioned.

    Peter
     
  5. ritche-stl

    ritche-stl Valued Member

    when you say "motion" do you mean you move from and into this stance? when you do, i'm thinking it might be different. but i can't say for sure since my knowledge of the art is very limited.
     
  6. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member





    But you also in the first instance did not imply it was not either and your initial post regarding this also made it seem as though you were just refering to the FMA, but even so, all Martial Arts are practical if trained and performed correctly, it is not the art that is lacking it is the student or teacher.




    Whilst even in a low stance, you will find that contrary to popular belief that you still have to defend all targets.




    Now putting it that way, I can understand what you mean. You said the all important thing. Personal Preferance. And what has age got to do with it, I have trained with old Manongs in their 80's & 90's who could drop into a low stance and crack you quicker than you could blink.




    And if you wanted to learn how to lock and throw you can pop along to the Aikido Club. That's what I am trying to get at, it is comments like these that get peoples backs up, regardless of style. I have trained with a top Aikido practioner who is also a top Master of the FMA, his speciality is his version of Eskrido which effectively uses many Aikido moves combined with Eskrima, hence 'Eskrido'




    What has Cat stance etc got to do with box splits? your going from one end of the scale to the other. I often use these stances and could never do the box splits (got close a few times many years ago). But short of standing with your feet together you have not left yourself much option for mobility. (Box splits not included).




    Have you seen the similar flowery hand movements of Sinawali Empty hand translation? it can and does at times look like some of the so called flowery intertwined hand movements of kung fu, but this does not mean that they are adding in extra, (not for use in practical combat) moves. As a matter of fact Balintawak as was Lapunti (A style that favours low stances) was in some repsect influenced by Kung Fu via Jonny Chuiten who is involved with both styles, he for those of you who don't know was also a very well known (in the Philippines) Hung Gar Master. As a matter of fact and if you do your research you will find Kung Fu influences in many instances in the FMA, look at Kuntao for instance.




    Well having watched a few K1 events, and many of those in them being Thai Boxers I would say they have for all intense and purposes stuck to their art, some individuals may have adapted their art to suit the tournament, but lets be real, K1, Karate Tournaments and even UFC at the end of the day are sports and only really bare a slight resembalnce to the art they are showcasing, they are not street fights they are entertainment with rules and the sportsmen and women play within those rules. I have fought in both Thai Boxing and FMA tournaments and have stayed as true to each art as possible within the realms of the sporting rules, So your point being?




    More flexibility does not nessesarily mean inpracticality, I have seen and even pulled off some very nice head kicks (in my younger days that is;) ) both in the ring and on the street, it is all a matter of the right application at the right time, but now as I am begining to stiffen up all of my head kicks are now done once they are on the floor:) , More practical for me at this point in time.




    Exactly, so should you not have said that in the first place as opposed (maybe due to bad wording) implying that what you done was more practical than what others do.



    Personally I cannot see that you were talking about anything but FMA in your initial post, so that is why I ask what you base your expeariance on? What other FMA styles have you tried to make a comparison?


    Let me also point out, I to like Balintawak and have trained in it in the past on more than one occasion and I can see why individuals would choose it as their prefered style, I have also seen GM Nick Elizar in action and do talk to him from time to time. And trust me he is a top FMA Master. But I am sure even GM Nick Elizar would tell you that even he would not rely soley on being upright, when the need arises as they say.


    To emphasize Peters point, I have seen and got on video Balintawak guys using low stances, so Balintawak is not as one dimensional as you would have some beleive. There is far more to the picture than that as I am sure you will find out in good time.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2006
  7. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Looks like a low stance to me, This is Balintawak by the way right Malcolm.
     

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  8. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And check out the stance on the left.

    Oh yeh, that's GM Nick Elizar on the right, in what looks like a straddle stance.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2006
  9. Peter

    Peter Valued Member

    Hi Ritche

    You are in a deepish stance, just out of range. Keep the stance but sway forwards slightly to hit and back slightly to avoid an attack. Any low shots, you may need to move completely or defend using another method.

    Good luck in your training

    Best regards

    Peter
     
  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Similar stance, different effective and practical style.
    Oh look there wearing belts. Get my point Malcolm?
     

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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2006
  11. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    OH yeah! and this one, the guy using the low stance got the first blow in on this occasion:eek: Two fighters, same style, one prefers low stances and the other. Well I think you get the point.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2006
  12. ritche-stl

    ritche-stl Valued Member

    Thanks a lot for the information.

    Take care....
     
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I know the picture is small, but that would'nt be a cat stance as he forces his partner to the floor would it? Balintawak again by the way.

    Enough then I think I have made my point.
     

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  14. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    Yeah sure, they have their use. I myself used lastico a few times and in friendly bouts employed "dropping" stances to get those knees but in general usage, I personally found upright stances and footwork more practical. Need less effort too. Low stances become impractical when one makes it his style.. "a low stance mostly/only" style.. thus limiting one's movement right from the start.

    cheers!
     
  15. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    In this scenario, yes.. but what if the blue guy didn't have a headgear to protect his head? That attack would be imprudent.
     
  16. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    I've seen some GMs who employed drawing by using this very wide stance and weapon pointing to the ground.. inviting the opponent to strike him in the head. When the opponent strikes, this one GM would simply sway back and hit the hand. And worked most of the time until someone as skilled as him showed him how easily he can be disarm.
    If one becomes a better fighter by using low stances then good. I just personally prefer a more upright stance coz it works for me.

    regards!
     
  17. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    the fighter in blue's head is quite low but his lead weapon would've checked the attack to the head. in the arnis systems of the northern tribes, they often do this. in fact the drill is based on the "panabas" dance.
     
  18. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    I don't do FMA but I can see his defending hand clearly blocking the direct line of attack to his head. And I'm not even factoring in the concept that if the stick = blade.. That other guy would be counter attacking on a stump right now. I think its a pretty slick move honestly.
     
  19. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    actually, it's not. i'm familiar with the method of which ritchie speaks, and the elastiko/lastiko motion is seen as a last resort. the goal is to use these types of stances to put yourself into a position where you can hit while avoiding a strike at the same time, rather than swaying in and out. shifts in weight are used to make minor adjustments, but the goal is to be able to avoid and attack in the same position, not having to shift between defensive and offensive.

    it's very hard to describe, and something that really has to be seen. it's different from lastiko; it capitalizes on the advantages of low, wide stances, has methods to compensate for the shortcomings, and can employ a lastiko motion as a 'backup.' physically, it's very demanding on the legs.



    tim
     
  20. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    I don't think the photo was quite posed for....it was an action shot and you can see in the photo that the right hand has struck down and the left hand is in the process as the photo was taken of moving up to cover the head. (Obviously it moved out the way for the strike to come through)
    You can see the motion drag from the stick in the photo is underneath the solid view of the stick, so it is following an upward path to cover the head I reckon.

    This guy used this style all day to great effect and reached the final which confirms this footwork worked well under pressure and at speed.

    Lots of love :love:

    Lucy
     

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