Huh?????? I really like to see this.... Would you look in the mirror and see what have you done? What kind of front kick did you do? Are you fighting from cat stances? I'm so sorry, I'm only a beginer in sparr..would you elaborate more? If you don't move your shoulder while kicking from the fighting stance than, I have to bow a respect to you as PENDEKAR! Tristan
I am nowhere near pendekar, I don't need to be in order to throw a front/snap kick without moving my shoulder. If you are referring to the position of having most of the weight on your front leg, then this is different, but that position wouldn't be recommended to begin with.
In my rather paltry experience in the arts, I've noticed that the more experienced your opponnent - the better they are at causing you to "mis-read" their intentions. My 77 year old teacher was recently sparring a 30 year old - experienced at sparring full contact, boxing, etc. The 77 year old got a shot in on the youngster that left us all laughing. The guy never saw it. He couldn't even figure out how it got in. We had to replay the tape. The teacher had manipulated angle,distance and his focus all in one subtle combination. I will however pay closer attention to the shoulder of the lead leg in the future and see if it is a master key to percieving intention. I need all the help I can get. But if I end up with a smushed nose and a black eye - I'm not going to be happy - I'm Not Pretty enough already.
Here's an idea for controlling your opponents timing. Play with it and see if you can figure out what it does and you can make it work. Assuming your opponent is circling around when he spars. Set a shoulder angle and as your opponent circles you, do not change your shoulder angle. You can close the gap with your opponent and have your shoulder lines already set. It may feel uncomfortable at first, as you could be engaging your opponent at an odd angle (especially when you are used to "squaring up"), your juru tools should take care of that. You should engage your opponent at the point he/she is about to get to your shoulder line or at your center line (or somewhere in between). Make sure you track with your eyes. Bart
In fighting stance, your weight should be 50-50, right? Are you telling me any different? Mr. Pendekar Wali, if you are in 50-50 in which is recomended for fighting stance, if you do a front snap kick without moving your shoulder even a bit. What good that kick for? Try kick the bag with your weight 50-50. and let someone hold your shoulder (because its obvious you can't feel your shoulder move) than if you are successfull to do that without moving your shoulder, please tell of how good and hard your kick is. :bang: Otherwise...you are wasting my worthless time Tristan
"Tracking Opponent" Fireshadow, Can you please elaborate on "tracking the opponent with your eyes"? Also, when you say "set your shoulder angle", is that in relation to yourself or in relation to the opponent? If the opponent is "circling" are you turning with the opponent, or stationary with a "set" shoulderline? Thanks, JR :bang:
I was limited to your postures constraints. Whether the kick has any power or not doesn't invalidate the fact that a kick can be executed without moving the shoulder. It doesn't take much power for a snap kick to the groin to bring a man down. If it was from any posture, we are in constant movement all the time, so the shoulders would always be moving, but wouldn't give a clue as to how the attack was going to take place. Our system places heavy emphasis on the 'gelek', so coiling and twisting is at the centre of each movement. Also, we don't have a 'fighting stance' per se. ANY posture is a 'fighting stance' and a good silat man shouldn't have to re-adjust to any fixed position or stance.
Hmm, I really to see you move, can you send me a video of yourself doing that? Otherwise you are being dishonest and full of ....
Mr. Wali, Kick 101, you need to know how to transfer your weight before you kick, some of the advance silat players can do it at the same time. Kicking is just like stepping. The only time you do not need to transfer your weight is when your weight is all ready in the back leg and you are kicking with the front leg. Shoulder is always in active moves, if you don't move your shoulder than you becomes stagnate. How you move without moving your shoulder? In the scenario I gave you, your left shoulder is in the front.... Think before you answer this. This is not about silat or myth, this is about body mechanics. But again you are the professional fighter, in that case, I could be wrong too
It isn't necessary to move the shoulder when transferring weight from one leg to another. Again I repeat, you set the scenario and the posture, and I said you could kick from THAT position without having to move the shoulder. Whether the kick delivers as much power as by not moving the shoulder, that's another issue. I never stated that we moved without moving our shoulders. This was your fabrication. You can view some of the walisongo silat at www.reelcombat.com. This is a promotional site, but it's the only video link I can provide at this time. Perhaps you might have a link of your own that I may take a look at? This way we can better understand our respective systems, and stop confusions from flaring up posts.
Wali, How do you transfer your weight without moving your shoulder? Unless you can demonstrate what you are saying to me, please don't make a fool of yourself in this forum...Don't your realized everyone is seeing you digging yourself deeper? If you fight from cat stance, that the only way you can kick with your left leg without moving your left shoulder. Is that the way you fight? In order to move smoothly, you must maintain 50-50, If your don't, you have to make an effort to transfer your weight. In real fight that nano second can mean everything. BTW, I don't need to see your www.reel combat.com , I've been in real combat, I'm a combat vietnam veteran. As far as I know, anyone claimed that they teach combat, most of the time, they never been in combat themselves. Snake oil everyone? Please check my website: www.silat-video.com May be too elementary to you, though. Tristan
You have no manners, and an ovious axe to grind. As to your question, here is the simple answer. Stand up, weight 50/50. Now march on your feet on the spot. There. Weight transferred, no shoulder moverment. Do I need to draw you a picture? Please don't try and tell me that you maintain a 50/50 weigth distribution throughout. The simple act of STEPPING means you transfer the bulk of your weight onto any leg at any given time. Unless you guys jump like grasshoppers in movement. THAT I would pay to see. My, my. First you ask for a video, when given one, you jump on your high horse and proclaim to the world about your combat experience. I knew that all the "just my worthless opinion" nonsense you put at the end of your posts is just false humility. Perhaps if you took a look, you might see what real silat looks and moves like. Took a look. Not impressed. Looks like Karate to me. I guess all those formative years in your primary art are hard to let go. Also, your student let you take him down with your flying gunting. Wouldn't work on a non-compliant opponent. Well, it seems to me that you have set the tone for this thread, one which I tried to avoid in the 'silat sparring' thread. Take a look at the tone, aggressiveness and sheer malice of some of your posts, in case you start playing the victim and start complaining that I am being abusive or rude. I would have expected a little more adab from a silat teacher such as yourself. Just my worthless opinion. EDIT - After re-reading through my replies, I was tempted to delete them, but it had to be said. You have brought disharmony to a silat forum where it didn't really exist previously. I won't be contributing to this thread anymore, regardless of your reply, so I wouldn't waste your time with one.
You have no manners, and an ovious axe to grind. As to your question, here is the simple answer. Stand up, weight 50/50. Now march on your feet on the spot. There. Weight transferred, no shoulder moverment. Do I need to draw you a picture? Stupid is stupid does! If you are in 50-50. your weight is distributed equal. at any time you transfered your weight to either leg, your shoulder would be move, even a little. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Please don't try and tell me that you maintain a 50/50 weigth distribution throughout. The simple act of STEPPING means you transfer the bulk of your weight onto any leg at any given time. Unless you guys jump like grasshoppers in movement. THAT I would pay to see. I can tell you now Wali, be a man, tell your real name to everyone, have you ever fight? Or you only the wannabe? The key boad warrior. I'm asking you a simple question. In the scenario I gave you, and you confused yourself and then digging the hole deeper and deeper. 50-50 is to start and most completion enede into front stance or horse stance,etc., and then back to 50-50. Tell me again, have you ever fight? :bang: My, my. First you ask for a video, when given one, you jump on your high horse and proclaim to the world about your combat experience. I knew that all the "just my worthless opinion" nonsense you put at the end of your posts is just false humility. Perhaps if you took a look, you might see what real silat looks and moves like. I want to see you doing it not everyone else because you have the biggest mouth. Did anyone in that website have ever been in combat? If not, why do they proclaimed and teaches real combat? :bang: Took a look. Not impressed. Looks like Karate to me. I guess all those formative years in your primary art are hard to let go. Also, your student let you take him down with your flying gunting. Wouldn't work on a non-compliant opponent. Thank you, in my tournament day, people like you don't last a minute with me in the ring...again have you ever fight? BTW, I studied Shotokan Karate and Iaijutsu Omori Ryu longer than your life. Some of the video shoot was at the time when I was compare and contrasted between Japanese and Indonesian silat. I think my student put the word "waza" on it. :bang: No one at that time of seminar have known what I'm trying to do. We never plan those. Bob Orlando took the video. If people like Bob Orlando and Stevan Plinck and other who have seen me perform consider me a silat student. Who you are to judge me? Have you ever fight Wali? Well, it seems to me that you have set the tone for this thread, one which I tried to avoid in the 'silat sparring' thread. I do too, I'm trying to be polite but this time you cross the line. You have no manner, you are talking to the elder like talking to the begger. Where is your adat and hormat? Do you really learning silat? Do you know sopan santun is? Take a look at the tone, aggressiveness and sheer malice of some of your posts, in case you start playing the victim and start complaining that I am being abusive or rude. I would have expected a little more adab from a silat teacher such as yourself. You are talking Adat? Gee.....I'm older than you, I have more experience than you, I have an underware older than you, but yet you are talking to me without manner. And you expect me to bow down to you. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Just my worthless opinion. Yes in deed ! EDIT - After re-reading through my replies, I was tempted to delete them, but it had to be said. You have brought disharmony to a silat forum where it didn't really exist previously. I won't be contributing to this thread anymore, regardless of your reply, so I wouldn't waste your time with one. Learn to listen and listen to learn. Run to your mommy and hide, does not work in the real world!
Realitychecker, "Tracking the opponent with your eyes" may not be the best way to put it. Many times with silat jurus I see guys (including myself) looking down too much or "hunkering down". It is instinctive to "hide" your mandibles between your shoulders and not have much neck flexibility or movement. This may be great for boxers, but it isn't so great for advanced silat practitioners. "Swiveling" the head (without turning the shoulder line) should be practiced within the jurus. "Swiveling" and an upright head position helps with multiple opponents and peripheral vision. Any ideas what BN jurus this should be empasized on? As far as seeing stuff, try this. Check and see if you and your training partners scan the room when you do puter, or if you either look at the floor or skip past the stuff in between or both. Your eyes should "cut" the room in half (keep your head up). I had to get on one of my students the other day because after I instructed him on this he still looked down and "missed" me when he did puter and I was 5 feet away. This seems simple but it is important. As far as "setting the shoulder angle" goes. I would recommend not clashing with your opponent and having your shoulder line parallel with his. If your shoulders are parallel, you will have a much more difficult time blocking and very difficult lines to "set" your opponent on. If your opponent is circling, don't be stationary. Track them down and force them to engage in your timing. Do lock in your shoulders and try it out. You should feel the depok and sempok being used to move towards your opponent. It will probably feel very awkward at first, because you won't be "squaring up" to your opponent and will have to start using some different juru tools. However, your opponent should feel seriously "uncomfortable" with the speed and efficiency you are closing on him with. As I stated, you should engage your opponent at the point where he is between your centerline and front shoulder line. In time you should be a little more "free" with your shoulders, but control them and work "with" your partners and feel it out to begin with. Bart
Salam Hormat, Forgive me for stepping in the middle but i think i better do. Wali and Orang Jawa, can u two be at peace? I hate seeing silat practitioners against eachother. U see, we have to remember that our fighting styles descended from the same continent, same archipelago. Back then in the past, rivalries against perguruan is all around and this brought down our race till the colonies stepped in. What we should do is actually Unite and Fight, Together We're Undefeatable. So if can we make peace with eachother and bond our hearts and Might as ONE. When we exchange thought of our art with eachother, we could contribute to the improvement of silat. I hope you guys understand what i'm trying to tell you. Forgive me for my intervention. Salam Persilatan
There are many ways to use the eyes in a fight. Most of them are bad Seriously, a soft focus is what you should be trying for. If you stare with a hard focus you begin the bad stress-response loop. Tunnel vision leads to tachypsychia (weird time dilation effects), hypervigilance, auditory exclusion and all the rest. In a fight, especially against more than one person, this can get you in serious trouble. Besides, peripheral vision is best at detecting motion. Every really good martial arts teacher I've been exposed to teaches this one way or another. When we went through a period of more sparring before the current back-to-basics phase it was interesting and a bit spooky to see people looking very intently at nothing in particular - an intense soft focus if you will. Since our brains attach so much importance to vision it is easy to use it inappropriately. Bart alludes to this when he talks about the tendency to look at what your body is doing during juru-juru practice. You should be using other senses to keep track of what your body is doing.
Thanks Kejawen, It's one thing to develop a strong convictions, it's quite another to hold that convictions even when its appears foolish in the eyes of the world. In my culture, I grow up learn to respect each other. especially the elder. We even use different language and different body motion when speak to the elder. Even though, I had spent two third of my life in the USA. I still do. I'm still bother with younger age speaks boisterous to an elder. Especially someone who sign his name as a Saint and from silat aliran "Nine muslim saints". I have never heard of the silat system before but that's was not the issue. The issue was, he denied everything, but yet when I went to their website. I saw everything that he denied doing was there. Ie. They standing 50-50 before they started the preplan fight, their shoulder move, etc. One more thing, combat is about life and death. One should not use that word if they never been there, let alone teach them how to survive in combat. Do you want to learn how to do a free fall parachuting from someone who never jump from the airplane? Yes they can teach how to jump, but they credibility is in question. Respect the elder opinons, because most of their opinion have been shape by a lifetime of experience and thought, just as yours have. Peace and Be Well, Tristan
Tristan, I don't want to re-ignite this thread, so will try and keep it as simple and polite as possible. My example was purely to show that it was possible to kick without moving the shoulder. I made it clear that this wasn't something I would personally do, as the power would be greatly decreased, and it's not a practical movement. It was purely to indicate that it was possible, not that it was practical. If convictions seem foolish to "the eyes of the world" (In your opinion only, as you misinterpreted what I said), then so be it. Also, I respect my elders, wherever they may be. However, they must act in such a way and earn that respect, or at a minimum, act in such a way that they don't lose it. Simply being older doesn't entitle anyone to the respect of another, specially if their tone and conduct doesn't merit it. Again, I will put this latest incident as a misunderstanding, and a translation issue. Having spent 2/3 of your life in the US, I imagined that you would have seen & understood what I was trying to say. Again, I will put this down to 'lost in translation', and nothing more. This issue was a non-starter, as explained previously. I denied nothing. I stated that you could kick without moving the shoulder, not necessarily that you should.... as previously explained several times already, Here is where you are making large (erroneous) assumptions. On what basis do you make your claim that we have no real combat experience? What makes you think this? You would be surprised, but not on this forum to boast or brag. Please note that I mentioned that this was a promotional site. The site is also called REELCombat, and not REALcombat. This is a double-entender, symbolising combat for the screen (TV, movies...) hence REEL, as in film reel. Anyway, in a nutshell, ego to one side, I am willing to put this 2nd incident to one side and move on. I don't do politics or internet wars.
Woah, You two guys got off to a bad start The Wali Songo were 9 Sufi saints/missionaries who spread Islam throughout Java. I think for the most part, Javanese Islam still represents the more tolerant Islamic ideals that pre-date this modern 'Wahabism', but don't get me started on that one :bang: . Still, how this relates to Wali Songo Silat I don't know. However, when it comes to Silat one can be a White Dove, a Faithful Heart, a Shield of the Self, a Village in Java, a Magazine, or even 'our' Chained Tiger Not to mention the other 2 thousand. So in context, 9 Saint Silat isn't too much of an unusual name. Pak OJ, I have personaly been told by a very experienced Silat practitioner that Steve Benitez is an exceptional Silat practitioner and very fast by all accounts. I have no reason to doubt this persons word. Um, time to go :love:
