What throws does Hapkido favor in the clinch? Do you guys study the clinch?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by wires, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Hello, I'll give this all a shot...

    I have a pretty good grasp on what works from my own life experience and that of my students - most of my Black Belts are well in their 30's with lots of life behind them as well as training.

    Sorry that may seem hard to believe - but we start with quite simple wrist breakaways, and these are done against partners that are holding at full strength - the fist 8 classes or so are generally shorter for beginners because of the trauma to the skin. As one progresses in the curriculum, the resistance is kept up, as students learn not only how to do technique, but also how to react to the effect of technique (hope that makes sense).

    I am not sure I follow - yesterday, for example, I took the blue belts in our club through an exercise using a reverse arm joint lock done at full speed - the technique is really quite simple - the breakfall (or reaction) is not - so the class was devoted to the reaction rather than the technique - and no one left broken - so I believe under the right conditions, these techniques can be executed at full resistance.

    Did I really say that? I checked the rest of the thread and missed it...in all honesty, and with all due respect, I have no idea how MMA got started - generally, from what I have seen (read that again - what I have seen - indicating limited exposure) I call this MMS - Mixed Martial Sport - as I see very little "art" involved - again it may be there - just not in what I have seen. But as to the statement that it derives from "a truly no holds barred fight" - I would disagree based on my experience as I have never seen a fight look like what little I have seen of MMA.

    Sorry, I can't give an opinion - I only watch UFC 1, saw clearly the fix was in, and have never been back.


    After 30 years in Hapkido, I might do poorly in a judo tournament. I have never trained to sport fight - just finish, which I might add I have done a few (too many) times in the last few decades - frankly however, most of the older Kodokan Judoka I know would not do well in todays competition - most of them fight VERY nasty - and I have seen some tightening of the rules of Judo Comp.s in recent years...

    Let me also put this all in context, I train for several reasons - not least of which is the art. I live in Chicago, a pretty violent city for the first world, and I will tell you, the last time I checked, there were no gangs of marauding youths - check that, yes there are (lol), but the need to protect oneself even here is secondary to the other aspects of the art - FOR ME.

    The other issue you raised is over generalization. I would like to comment on this. I firmly believe that many people have a false impression of what Hapkido is. I am fortunate enough to train in the original material of its founder, Choi Dojunim. The art has no high or flying kicks, and no huge circle motions - the original art is not very pretty to watch, but it is quite effective. And, although I do consider myself proficient at all ranges, if you will, the meat and potatoes of this art are close range infighting, which is quite powerful. Please don't believe youtube is the place to find out what Hapkido looks like - yikes.

    This may be true, I do not groundfight (for reasons I listed earlier in the thread) - in Hapkido, we ground finish. I really don't want to roll around on the ground to fight - and again, in all honesty, I have never in some 20 years of seeing fights on three continents ever seen anything that resembles a BJJ style wrestling match. And in terms of Judo, many of the older Judo guys I know gave up Judo in the 60's - 70's to practice stand up fighting - like Karate, becasue they believed no one ever fought on the ground like that outside competition. Again, this is my perspective.

    I can't, and won't, speak for Aikido, but I have applied several choice wristlocks during bar fights, and the end result is generally a broken bone or two - throwing is hard in a crowded bar unless you are looking to set off other fights. Actually, I might call these techniques wrist drags, as the end result is much like what occurs at the end of a whip.

    Please feel free to visit anytime you are in Chicago. Maybe we can stir up enough trouble to let you try one yourself. :)
    Never tried that...

    Hope I helped a little.
     
  2. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Hello all,

    I agree Thomas. As a side note - and I don't want to speak for you Korpy, but I think he found himself in quite a bad Hapkido program - and got burned out and just burned in general - am I close Korpy?
     
  3. cluebird

    cluebird For various reasons --

    Word.
     
  4. cluebird

    cluebird For various reasons --

    Fair enough.

    This makes much more sense than what I originally pictured from your earlier post, something akin to neck lock's against fully resisting opponents, possible resulting in injury, or something of the sort.

    Yes, but that is exactly what I speak of. With such specialized reactions to the movements, it soon becomes ingrained into the student's mind to go with whatever the technique is, instead of resist, because of possible consequences.

    The first five UFCs had no rules, and showed exactly what a real fight would look like, no referee stoppages, stomping, groin, back of the neck attacks all allowed.
    Do you mean to say the fights were fixed in Royce Gracie's favor? If so I would like to see some evidence on that topic.
    I do not mean to say people trained in Hapkido should do well in judo, but if Hapkido claims to be a complete throwing system, then they should without a doubt be able do something...

    And yes, judo is still pretty dirty, just depends where you go. And who you fight...

    No I understand what you are saying. But you have to train quite a bit to become succesful in all ranges of fighting, just like the athletes you see in mixed martial arts.
    When you say ground finishing, what do you mean?

    That may be true that some judo men left judo, but if you watch any fight between a pure striker and a pure grappler, the result is almost always the same. Striker get's taken down, and tapped out.


    A bar fight is quite different from a fight between to fighters. It is so much easier to apply wristlocks, or any technique, to a drunken, probably unmotivated man, who in addition is not trained in any escape method other than thrash about.

    It is quite effective as a surprise attack.
    You helped quite a bit my friend. Thank you for keeping the discussion, just that, a discussion.
     
  5. Korpy

    Korpy Whatever Works

    And you are one of the leading members of the not so good, delusional martial artists.

    And Thomas to read about eye gouges and other t3h d3@dly techniques working in a real fight, read Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie. He explains perfectly why those techniques simply wont work in a real fight.
     
  6. MacWombat

    MacWombat Valued Member

    Chokes are allowed in the UFC, and punching to the throat was legal in Pride yet no fights ended because of it.
     
  7. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    For beginners, that might hurt... :)


    Now, that was a more specific example - the hallmark of Hapkido is that it is made up of principles - these form the core of what we train in - so often times the "same technique" will change drastically depending on the partner or defender. (Hope that makes sense)


    Well, not really what a real fight looks like - maybe as close to a real fight under the controlled conditions of a sporting sense. I saw very little that looked like a real fight in UFC 1. Again, from my own experience, I have never seen a fight last more than 40 seconds - and that was long. I have never seen anyone fight on the ground that didn't get the crap kicked out of them - even by their own comrades. Again, my experience - others may have seen other things - but the statement made by the Gracies at that time that 90% of all fights end on the ground - not in my experience.

    No, maybe not in Royce Gracie's favor, but I certainly saw some dubious stuff. The example that sticks in my head is the fight between the Kempo stylist and Manny Yarbourgh. Now, in the real world there is very little that I have ever seen that could have taken out a man of that size and condition - in my opinion, he took a dive for the pay - I have seen him hit a damn site harder and not even be phased. I lost interest soon after that.

    Agreed, if the sporting aspect is removed - and again, not all Hapkido is created equal... :)

    Agreed.

    A lifetime of training for the eventuality no one ever wants...

    In simple terms, I do what I need to to get back to my feet, and hope the other guy cannot...

    I asked some of my students to respond to that - and although that seems to have been the case, apparent notables like Chuck Liddell and Maurice Smith seem to defy that rule. (I have no idea who they are.)

    I don't train to fight a "fighter" - but those I would meet in the real world - some might be fighters - most are just unfortunates who don't understand my want not to fight in the first place.

    For the record, those individuals I have fought in bars may start out drunk - but they sober up pretty quick and become very adamant about being ejected.

    My pleasure.
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I think if you re-read my post you'll see what I mean.

    Eye gouges, fishhooks, skin grabs, rakes, etc are not necessarily "fight-enders" but they can help get you to a better position in a real fight. If you only train where those techniques are excluded you run the risk of not reacting to them or using them when you can in a self defense situation. There is a difference between sport applications and self defense applications... to be good in one you need to train for it. "Just" training in sport techniques doesn't automatically make you good in the self defense realm.

    Just like guys who spar and not allow punches to the head can get punched in the head easier, people who grapple without ever allowing eye gouges (and grapple with respectful people who won't try them) might find themselves getting a finger in the eye in a real fight.

    Tournament style BJJ has great technique and is very effective. It can be trained for self defense as well but there are some modifications that need to be made. If you look at some of Royce Gracie's self defense material (there are some great photo essays in old copies of Grappler magazine and I think he has a book on it) you'll see a lot of standing locks and techniques that are essentially the same as we do in Hapkido from a standing position.




    Here's a cool eye gouge video
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1vYfyRFTlw"]After serious fouls should BJJ matches continue? - YouTube[/ame]

    And didn't Yuki Nakai get literally blinded by Gerard Gordeau in a MMA fight with an eye gouge? It wasn't necessarily a fight ender (Nakai won that one, another one, but then lost to Rickson Gracie and he had to retire from Vale Tudo because he was now BLIND in one eye.)
    see http://bloodyelbow.com/story/2007/8/9/163928/6708 for the story
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  9. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    Because you know anything about me? I'm not the delusional type you think I am, which is the problem with nutriders and their immediate dismissal of any TMA. I happen to also be a member of Bullshido, so I know all the platitudes (and agree with most of them.) An art doesn't have to train for sport in order to employ live training. That's not even mentioning the fact that there is, in fact, a sporting element to Hapkido known as Pro Hapkido. (Look it up on YouTube since you probably also refuse to believe anything unless it's on video.)

    P.S. Regurgitating one-liners such as "t3h d3@dly" places your intelligence slightly above most single-celled organisms.
     
  10. cluebird

    cluebird For various reasons --

    Thanks again for replying to the topic Iron Ox.

    It was good of you to clear up that bit about the technique you mentioned.

    The one point where I do have to disagree is about the mention of Chuck Liddell in order to support the point that fights don't go to the ground. Chuck Liddell is an eceptional fighter, well trained, and not unschooled in grappling. He knows how to defend a takedown, and in doing so pummels his opponents who keep striving for a ground fight.

    In a real life situation, the fact of the matter is that we probably won't run into a random brawler with the ability to stuff your shots like Liddell. I hope for my sake, and yours.

    I do agree somewhat about the first UFC, but not fully. It truly was no holds barred, and the reason that it was in a cage was to enhance that, not detract from it. When it is a open mat space or a ring , there is the chance a contestant winds up outside of it, and the fight must be stopped.

    Truly astute observations from all here.
     
  11. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    You Fight the way you train.
    If you train with in rules and disallow strikes to the eyes,the throat,the nose,the ears,the joints,the knees,the fingers,then when in a real Fight you will do what you are used to doing the most of.

    The Gracies say that in a real Fight they can go to eyes,throat,joints,but I bet they could not.

    The Gracies say going to the ground in a Real street Fight is not a Good move,yet Renzo Gracies was mugged in NY and his First move was to try a Shoot take down,he missed the mugger,and broke or rebroke his knee cap,(various stories,Renzo says he broke it,students say he rebroke it)

    Renzo admits that he forgot where he was,the Shoot was INSTINCTIVE,this is what YOU WILL DO,you will do that which you train the Most.

    A palm heel strike that slides into fingers in the eyes is a great mental disruption and can lead to being a fight ender if you carry the balnce dispcement all the way to a crash to the ground.

    At our school We try to get the students to regularly use attacks that are illegal in sport, a web strike to the throat,trach twists,Finger attacks to the eyes,fish hooks,crushing the knee.

    Use Balance disruption to gain superiority and stop the opponents immediate intent to do you harm,take away their breathing and or sight and hurt them,that is Reality of Combat.

    Sport has Rules
    Street has No Rules
    If you train for Street Self Defense you better train in No rules and Reality of application of throws and locks.

    People who say Locks cannot be done in reality have never used their art to hurt the opponent and make them compliant to allowing locks to be done to them.

    Always have ,or CREATE,a compliant opponent.

    I was at a Reality Knife dfense seminar and the Instructor went on and on about how a lock cannot and or should not be used against a knife.
    He had a knife fighter from Haganah (FIGHT system as the knife attacker)
    The first attack was a full on stomach thrust ,I caught the arm,pulled forward and as he fell forward I moved in ,closed the gap,used elbow strikes on entry.kicked his knee out and took him into a center lock,disarmed and then took him down.

    The instructor said he never saw a lock applied with such violence and had never seen one work.
    (So don't believe the hype of what works and what does not,train hard,train often,train against non compliant partners that make you make things work and train for Reality)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  12. Korpy

    Korpy Whatever Works

    You know nothing of me, and make opinions of me. So if you donn't want anything said about you, then keep your "assumptions" of me quiet.

    People like you are why most TMA suck. "Well I can't punch good... I can sorta throw fancy kicks... but I can eye gouge, bite, and groin kick my way to victory!"

    That's plain freakin stupid and you know in deep down. You simply can't use d3@dly techniques in a "real fight". Since I actually *GASP* step into the ring and test my martial art skills, I can talk about this, while you really can't. It's hard to use d3@dly techniques when you got a guy throwing combinations, or a guy picking you up and throwing you down.

    Once again, your type is why most TMA sucks.

    (Btw I'm not an MMA nuthugger, I train TMA and use it in combat sports)



     
  13. doc97

    doc97 Valued Member

    Hey guys, as a Judo guy looking at some cross training in hapkido (going back to it), I talked with a 3rd dan in hapkido and asked that very question. Basically how much judo or yudo throws are in hapkido, and he told me that there were seven basic throws that he was taught, and then you build on from there. Any comments? And what kind of throws? I don't know what particular hapkido school he trained in (sorry).

    Also to the combat hapkido guys, are there more throws in that curriculum than traditional hapkido?

    A hapkido practioner once explained to me that the throws used are not only the sleeve and lapel grip, kinda what you were talking about Thomas. As he explained, you can't always rely than the person will have a sleeve or a lapel (i.e. gi)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    It realy depends on the Hapkido school and instructors. That said, your mention of "seven throws" is cool for me personally because in the IHF style I studied, we had 7 Yudo Techniques (5 throws and 2 sweeps). Working with a Judo guy a couple of years ago he commented that the techniques I was using were the first 7 he had learned in Judo.

    Granted, in Hapkido there are other sweeps and throws that are probably more "true" to Hapkido. I just happened to study in a school that taught Yudo technqiues alongside Hapkido.



    I think the core curriculum has a more limited arsenal of "throws" (not counting wrist lock throws and the like) although there is a supplemental module for "throws" available. I think it's more along the lines of having a lower number of "easier" throws to spend time on (as well as on other things) than to spend a lot of time on a wider variety of throws that may or may not be as effective for most people.

    True. We worked from the sleeve and lapel position because it was a good position to work on balance disruption, movement, and as a "default" position to set up our throws and sweeps from. Once we had the moves down we did work with partners wearing teeshirts and such and worked some different grips. Once you have the basics down pretty well, it adapts easily in my opinion. Of course, sometimes the type of clothing necessitated a variation.

    Otherwise in other Hapkido training we of course work from a variety of different "start" positions...
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  15. doc97

    doc97 Valued Member

    Thanks Thomas....

    I imagine then one armed shoulder throw, major hip throw, lifting pulling throw ,advancing/retreating foot sweep, major outer reaping, major inner reaping, or something along that line.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Heh heh heh ... sounds like it! :)
     
  17. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    I'm not the one who said anything about using eye gouges and such. I'm commenting on your general attitude which, as you have just proven, sucks.

    Anyway, I'll stop here as this exchange is distracting from a legitimate discussion that has developed.
     
  18. wild_pitch

    wild_pitch Melt The Guns!

    We also do a few different versions of fireman (upper and lower back) as well as a neck crank.
     
  19. doc97

    doc97 Valued Member

    Neck crank is more catch as catch can......nasty move, effective but nasty!!!! At least if it's the same move I am thinking of. Not really legal in judo, but that's not to say we don't play around with it..... :)
     
  20. JimH

    JimH Valued Member

    In the Combat Hapkido school I attend:
    We do Traditional Throws along the lines of the following:
    shoulder throw
    hip throw
    grab ,lift and throw
    leg throw
    leg sweeps.

    We also do the adjusted throws of Combat Hapkido which employ the same throws as above but use the body as the center point and the opponent is not lifted or hoisted to our backs but brought around the center point and downed.
     

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