What throws does Hapkido favor in the clinch? Do you guys study the clinch?

Greetings,

We don't limit to throws only as responses because we don't have sport limitations to our approach. For example we might twist your head/neck (similar to Bjj framing tech) to create space and do a standard hip throw, a reap, or get a armbar, shoulder lock, etc...

We might strike a vital point, use knee strikes, again to open up space and do above or an unlimited amount of options.

Again we take a broader approach and have all the major throws, sweeps, reaps, sacrifices, of judo in our arsenal and we'll use any of them from a wide variety of positions the clinch being just one situation.

I hope that helps.

 

fair enough.... did not mean to attack you at all.. replying to the tone after checking in.. as many will to new posts
in so far as years in an art contribute to the quality of a spokesman... while I admit the two are corrolated, sadly, time alone in an art does not make a good representative....
but it is a likely prerequisite before assessing the possibility of being a good spokesman

it's like saying.... i know how so let me teach..... there are more, and a different set, of skills required

 

Hello all,

I do agree. Years alone rarely make someone a good spokesman - and I know full well that I am overly protective when speaking of Hapkido as I have invested so much time and energy in finding out about an art that is so often falsely categorized and described.

Also, if it of interest, when I saw earlier that wires basically infers that either Ninjutsu or jiujitsu was a "phoney martial art" in another post on a separate thread, I figured the guy was just trolling.

Again, kmguy8, thank you for the response.

 

if it makes you feel any better..... your art has faired far better than ninjutsu or other (rightly or wrongly) maligned arts (with the possible exception of combat hapkido)

most experienced MAists will acknowledge your art as among the stronger TMA options.. it includes all ranges.. does not ignore grappling and has a nearly inexhaustible (to it's fault) repertoire of techniques

 

Hello all,

I think I would agree with you here. Although we fair well against others outside the art generally, the biggest issue lately has been from inside the art with people that have been lied to for years about Hapkido, and are unfortunately left to regurgitate the falsehoods about the art they have been taught.

And true, I feel we have a good grasp of ranges, and rarely ignore any combat oriented scenarios.

Thank you.

 

Thanks, Obi-wan.

But the fact remains that if you had said you were interested in cross-training in your original post, then we wouldn't have gotten off on this tangent.

To answer your question, I don't think HKD is the best art if you're purely interesting in clinch fighting. Since you claimed to see HKD throws resembling Judo, why not just search out a Judo club? They're usually more readily available than HKD schools, and probably cheaper as well.

 

One thing I have noticed is that traditional martial artists who do not compete in a sportive context, have no way of seeing what techniques work and what don't.

You said you train with 100% resistance from day one, a claim I find quite dubious. I know some of Hapkido's techniques are joint locking throws, which if practiced at full resistance would result in not many remaining students, much like koryu jujutsu in the days of feudal Japan.

In addition to this, you mention MMA's development from a truly no holds barred fight to sport, a phenomenon I wholly agree with. I think the reason that none of the traditional martial artists prevailed past UFC 5 was because of their devotion to static training.

I have never seen a hapkidoist do well in judo tournament, which I think is due to Hapkido's over generalization of martial arts. I.e. Hapkido practitioners spend time studying each range of combat, without the chance to become truly proficient in any.

The groundwork I've seen is certainly not on par with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and probably not comparable to judo's.

As you can imagine, it is quite hard to apply a wristlock to someone fully resisting, and the theory, much touted by Aikidoka, that you either have to be thrown or hurt greviously is strange.

I have never ever seen a wristlock pulled off in live sparring, but relish the day when I do. An exception this is wristlocks applied on the ground with two hands attacking one wrist.

If you could clarify some of these points for me it would be much appreciated.

 

No modern mixed martial artist that I know of lists Hapkido in their background, and has had any reasonable amount of success.

This does sound very well and good, and if trained properly would work quite well against an unarmed, untrained attacker on the street.

I think that the reason why judo banned some techniques, i.e. throws while applying a joint lock, grabbing only the neck for a throw, was not only for safety reasons, but also because these throws were proved ineffective in competition time and time again.

That is why the early Kodokan Judoka defeated tradtional JuJutsuka in the Tokyo Police Fights.

My two cents on head grabbing and neck twisting...

 

You keep comparing Hapkido to a "sport" oriented scenario. Hapkido groundwork compared with a BJJ practitioner?? In the real world if I go to the ground with someone I'm going to stick my thumb in their eye not try wrestle around trying to get wrist locks or fancy armbars. I like the UFC and MMA stuff....they are real tough guys and hope I would never have to go against one of them without a big stick lying around. However in the ring they have rules and I train for no rules.

 

Does anyone else find this statement utterly ridiculous?

 

Greetings

Well what you just said is the real differences in HKD and Sport type systems.

Judo is a throw specialist system and they excel in that venue, Bjj is another specialty system, boxing another, wrestling another, etc...

HKD and Trad Jujutsu is are much more well rounded than any of these specialty systems and a well trained HKD man or Trad Jujutsu man in a street fight has a better chance than any of the specialty system to win IMO.

In a specialized match you mentioned Judo vs JJJ with "Judo Rules" is why the Kodokan people bested the jujutsu camp plain and simple, I will not disagree.

On the battlefield where Jujutsu was developed over 100s of year for I have no doubt they would fair much better than the Kodokan Judo people.

It all comes down to what your training is geared towards nothing else.

 

I really don't recommend trying to apply a wrist lock to a fully resisting person in a sparring sense. If a conflict has reached the point where it has escalated to someone punching or actively resisting in that way - you need to escalate your response.

In my opinion, for the majority of the time, a wrist lock or jointlock is more useful when dealing with a lower level of force situation where you need to establish control or immobilize someone. Granted, if you want to apply a lock to someone who is actively resisting, I would advise you to hit them first and stun them, then control them with a lock (see Police Defensive Tactics and such).

In a sport situation like a MMA match, the awareness and level of force between the competitors is already high - both know what's coming (that there will be a "fight" and that it will (or could) end with a KO or submission). In those cases, I don't see where a person would try to apply a wrist lock unless they set them up with strikes or movement (hence where a striking art mixes well with a ground art... nice transitions). In a so-called real world situation like law enforcement or personal defense you may not have the option of bashing their head in and may have to use a lower level of force like a lock or escort move.

 

Greetings

Wrist lock not hard to pull off in sparring,- I can only imagine the people you work with don't have the type of training that can teach people
To use them.

Again bjj/mma is are not them same as HKD

 

Not sure if this in reply to me?

We do quite a bit of "open sparring" where we restrict the level of contact a bit but "allow" pretty much everything (hence why we restrict the level of contact). When the participants are aware that they are "fighting", it's pretty hard to slap on a lock and make it work the way it should.

Generally if it starts in "striking range" with two people trying to hit each other, I find it tough to put a lock on, especially without getting hit. If we transition from "striking range" to a "clinch range", it's a lot easier to do a throw or a lock of some sort. If we end up on the ground, I'm more apt to use strikes to set up for a lock or submission if I can.

I advocate using joint locks and escort techniques against a lower level of force... especially when the situation hasn't deteriorated to strikes (yet) or when I want to control without doing as much percussive damage. We spend a lot of time on locks because they take a lot of practice and training to use effectively.

 

Great Response Thomas! Being a prior Correctional officer I agree whole heartedly. It would be very frowned upon for law enforcement and bouncers to resort to kicking and punching unless it is absolutely necessary. Jointlocking is used by these types of people all of the time.

When I had to use jointlocks in the past against resisting people it wasn't when they were trying to destroy me with punching and kicking it was more that they weren't being compliant (not going to their cell, not emptying their pockets, trying to hurt themselves, puffing their chest, etc) Standing jointlocks definately have their place.

During our sparring I do catch a jointlock every now and again, just because it happens and I'm in the right position to execute it, not because I'm looking for it. There has also been times when I've tried a jointlock and ate some punches. Those are wake up calls that you either need to be side stepping and moving or doing softening blows to get the person thinking about something else while you're trying to complete the lock, or reversing the direction to a different lock, or maybe even abandon the lock all together and regaining distance.

Hapkido fits my personality and what I want out of a martial art. I love watching UFC and learning from other arts. But, I'll never be a competitor because that is not what I want to do. I'm not going to argue what is better because it is all opinion and what you want to get out of it.

A martial art is only as good as you perceive it to be, some peoples' experiences are different than others.

 

Greetings,

Not you Thomas.

 

OMG t3H D3@DLY EYE G0UG3!

N0000 RUL3S!!!

Get real.

 

After I replied I guessed we were probably typing at the same time!

 

Korpy has joined the ranks of the nutriders.

 

For self defense practice, you do need to spend time practicing the "deadly" moves as well. It does add a different element to sparring/training if you allow the eye atacks, fish hooks, etc. I don't see them as the end-all-be-all of self defense but do require a bit of training to be proficient at and to remember to defend against. One downside of sporting rules is that you have to remember to add in awareness of and training for those moves that are disallowed in competition, even if just to be prepared to protect yourself from them. (and again, one needs to factor in the level of force and situation... )