What throws does Hapkido favor in the clinch? Do you guys study the clinch?

I saw some Hapkido footage recently, and they were doing some Judo style throws. I was wondering if you guys at your Hapkido school work on the clinch at all? Or is it all "Lapel and Sleeve" throws like in Judo?

what throws do you seem to use the most in sparring, personally?

 

Hello all,

Why do you really care? You apparently do some sort of MMA - clearly not a traditional art, so what is the real interest? Just curious.

Personally, I am quite exhausted trying to explain anything to MMA people that assume that because we don't play a rules game that we are not "pressure tested".

And, as a general rule of thumb Hapkido is not Judo - so we don't use their throws - if you saw something that looks like Judo - it wasn't Hapkido...

 

Out of curiosity, where were these Hapkido techniques "pressure tested"?

Please, for my sake, do not say the jungles of east Asia.

 

Hello all,

No, not South East Asia, but the nightclubs of Chicago, and various security jobs for Death Row Records, and a few other little companies like that...

But most certainly not in the controlled confines of an air conditioned sports complex with a nice matted ring...

Don't get me wrong, I am happy for anyone that is satisfied with whatever art they practice, but if "pressure testing" a technique means a set up in a gym, I don't see it.

I also raised the query because I don't understand how someone gets another person "in the clinch" in the real world.

To be more direct with the original question, I teach that the clinch "attempt" is what is countered - with a variety of techniques, including some throws and strikes.

In addition, I looked at the web site of wires club. This club clearly has little idea of the nature of all traditional martial arts, but is clearly biased against them. As I have learned, and teach Hapkido, it is done against fully resistant opponents from day one. We don't stand in stances punching the air except for a little aerobic warm up (as an example of something one would find at a traditional martial arts class). That would be the same as me saying that I "know" that all MMA clubs practice just groundfighting, and nothing else - which in my fair city of Chicago will get you an invite to a boot party if you ever just used that in a real life fight. But I know MMA clubs do a lot more, but many seem to like to press a bias for things outside the scope of their own limited experience.

 

There are many that follow the history of Martial arts in Korea and show how it was used and developed over the centuries and used in battle.

I look at the art and where the art came from,Jujitsu.
Jujtsu,which was a Battlefield created / Battle Tested art.
Jujitsu the art that formed Hapkido,Aikido,Judo and Judo's down line BJJ.
I look at the use of Jujitsu concepts in the WWII combatives taught and used to the British and American Commando's in WWII as taught to them by Fairbairn,Applegate,Sykes,O'Neil and others.

I look at Hapkido as the art specifically taught to and used by US Army Special Forces In Vietnam.

Many throws seen in Hapkido and other throwing arts are partners throwing each other and themselves to save their joints.

In a Real Street situation I would never use the throws of Hapkido,or any art,
throws and take downs for ground grappling are unrealistic.

People do not go over as easy nor do they willingly throw themselves,so what you get in reality is an attacker who does not go in the air but who goes down in some manner which causes them alot of pain or broken bones.
(Grab a new student and put them in a throw position,lock or break position and see they do not respond as trained Uke/training partners,they just go down some how to eleviate the pain,they must be taught to take the throw or throw themselves to save their joints)

I would,in a Real encounter and the way we train usage of Hapkido at our school:
Close the gap using timing and momentum to pre empt an attackers striking or grabbing me,or immediately respond to an attackers surprise attack towards me.
I would use my body and its weapons to launch a Body weight attack into the opponent,taking or off setting the opponents balance.
I would hurt the opponent quickly,making him/her compliant to allow me to do what ever I wanted to do them,whether that be putting them in a lock, a break,a take down,or just dumping them and getting away.

I train to do what needs to be done quickly to end the conflict,I do not train to exchange and or sport fight any one.

I have used this application of my art many,many times in real Life and it has served me well.
(I guess this is also my testiment of application and testing under the pressure of Life and Death Reality)

 

I studied Hapkido under an IHF school in Korea (under Master Choi Hyeon-kyu 최현규). I learned some cool throws (Hapkido throws) as well as good amount of Yudo (Judo). We practiced often in the lapel and sleeve position and did a wide array of balance breaking, throws, and sweeps from that position. In our Hapkido self defense we also practiced how to counter such grabs (lapel and sleeve) and to counter throws and sweeps. For the most part the "sleeve and collar" garb was our main set up for a "clinch position" but we did variations on the theme and defenses for those.

So, I think if you see Yudo (Judo) techniques in a Hapkido school, don't be surprised - they share a close relationship (and one of the first real HKD students was a Judo practitioner)

I like the cross leg sweep and have worked a hip throw a couple of times in sparring. In sparring though I am more of a striker than a "thrower".

 

Greetings,

You guys are all correct Hapkido has elements of Judo like throws because Hapkido comes from Jutjutsu.

Judo comes from Jujutsu, Bjj comes from Judo, HKD comes directly from Jujutsu and still is Jutjutsu that hasn't changed.

Wow that was confusing

On to the real question at hand.

To be taken down you have to be grabed first I think we all agree. With that said HKD Judo defenses were designed so
when a Judo/Jujutsu person grabbed you we had a response which could be, a kick, strike, joint lock, counter throw, vital point attack, use some sort of weapon, etc...

The main difference in sport is we're not limited to any type of response, not to say what we do is deadly and all that crap but what we do is designed to defend against any attacks by taking advantage of weaknesses of the human body.

In sport all things must be equal to have a controled match and a real life SD situation is not build that way.

The very first UFCs were more of a test of systems vs system until everyone caught on. Current MMA/UFC is strictly a sport like boxing, judo, baseball, football, etc....

I don't think people like Wire should be comparing two entirely different things they each have there place.

 

Hm. This is the second time I asked an honest question on a TMA thread and got the "WHY ARE YOU ***REALLY*** POSTING?!?!!?!" response.

It was just an honest question.

 

Wow. A real answer. Thank you!

"Why do you really care?" is simply a pathetic response, Iron Ox. You sound like a depressed 15 year old teenager who is rebelling. "Why do you really care?"

I really cared because I was thinking about crosstraining in Hapkido. The most obvious way (to my thinking) to learn about before showing up was to talk to some real, live Hapkido practitioners. When I find weird, paranoid responses like 'Why doi you really care?" I am left to wonder if all Hapkido fighters behave like you.

I sure hope not. It's really lousy, lousy public relations for your fighting art.

 

Maybe you should have put that in your first response, you would have likely gotten earnest responses from the get-go.

Your fellow MMA practitioners have, fairly or not, earned a reputation for slamming traditional martial arts such as HKD, so you'll have to forgive some of us for being a tad defensive as to your intentions.

Out of curiosity, why would you be looking to cross train in HKD? My assumption was that MMA schools already have built-in cross training in multiple styles.

 

NO, not at all. Pathetic? Really? I checked out the web site you reference in your posts that basically states that traditional Martial arts are a certain way - which I feel is incorrect - if this is not your opinion, don't include a link to a site like this.

I agree with BSR - why didn't you just say you are interested in cross training - then your question would seem more relevant - but even then, with the web site you post, I would ask the same question - Why do you care? If the effort is to actually find out about Hapkido, read through some of the other threads. But again as BSR asks, why come from the MMA background of the linked site, and try to find another school? Yours acts like it can deal with anything...

Finally, that first statement was the first line of two responses in this thread. Nothing paranoid about it, just the honest query from a 30 year veteran of Hapkido that is really tired of the slagging off we generally get from the MMA crowd. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

Defensiveness is the realm of the insecure.

Not to mention it's a horrible way to represent your art. "If we jump on you before you actually do anything negative to us, you'll just have to understand.."

I took alot of beatings from inner city African Americans growing up in High School. What if I had the same poor logic? "Sorry, but I just tend to jump on black people from the very start because I've had bad experiences with them in the past..."

It sounds pretty silly, when someone says it like that...

Yes.

And it would also be a pretty safe assumption that MMA practitioners are always looking for new tricks and new ideas.

See, just like you say, we cross train and that is exactly why one of us might ask an Hapkido question or two.

And since you know we cross train it really shouldn't surprise you at all that someone might be asking a question or two.

 

You really aren't in charge of what people have in their signatures. Why do you try to tell people "Do this!" "Don't do that!" Is that a staple of your personality?

First off - how is a question about Hapkido not relevant in a forum about Hapkido? Be serious... It's very relevant.

Secondly: Well, had I known I was walking into a field of land mines, I might have done so. I had no idea you were so fragile and paranoid. Now I *do* know.

And I'm also smart enough to know that everyone practicing Hapkido could not possibly be as paranoid and defensive and quick to attack and whine as you are.

See, this is a web forum. When people have questions, they freely post. It's the beauty of a web forum. I know you might not get it, being that you like to tell people "Do this! Do that! Don't do that!" but it still remains true.

So, if I have a question, I post it. Try to understand.

Yours doesn't? Does your school advertise "We can deal with problem A, but not B or C! We don't have a defense for those sneaky attacks yet - but we're working on it!" Don't be ludicrous.

Again, the reason I ask about Hapkido is because I crosstrain.

You seem to be missing these simple points, and repeating a lot of the same questions. I am going to assume that is also a staple of your personality.

No feelings hurt. I recognized it as the defensive response of an insecure paranoid person. I didn't attack anyone, so your responses are unjustified and a little childish.

Until I attack you, how bout you back up a bit? It could be that you are being a bit silly and it could be that I'm a great guy who really just had some questions.

Honestly, I have nothing more to say to you. Until you can show me how I attacked you, in anyway to provoke your weird, prejudiced attitude - I won't see much need to respond to your posts.

And truly, try to be a better representative of your fighting style. By behaving as you have, you seem little different from the "MMA Guys" you are so upset with.. And how is that going to attract people to Hapkido?

 

For Anyone Who Has Forgotten, My Original Question:

FOR ANYONE WHO HAS FORGOTTEN, MY ORIGINAL QUESTION:

What throws does Hapkido favor in the clinch? Do you guys study the clinch?


--

That is a pretty honest question coming from someone working out in MMA. There was no attack. I was curious what you guys do. I was curious to hear about the differences in different classes. .. "We do clinch." "We never quite clinch, but work in that range." "I'm not sure if you'd call it clinch, but.."

Unfortunately, the guy who has done loads of Hapkido, and is most qualified to talk to me about it, decided to freak out and go totally OFF TOPIC.

Man. It's kind of depressing.

 

I don't study hapkido formally, but I'm a brown/black in kuk sool won, a VERY similar art, and we really don't work in the clinch. That's why I crosstrain

 

Thanks.

I appreciate the friendly response.

 

i feel that "iron ox" your a bad spokesman for hapkido.
as a non-hapkido practitioner and instructor, who has trained with many talented hapkidoka, I'd say your you could take a better approach, and seem awfully quick to judge...
this guy might have questions... could be about my art (as an MT MMA fighter who teaches KM) and I might answer a host of ways... but rarely "why do you care"
on the boards... this is even more the case.. because other prospective members of our arts might decide to glean info from new posts they see or archives....
I understand that the MMA popularity and compelling argument for effectiveness can be off-putting... but it does not invalidate more traditional training methods.....
and replies like yours do no good... for any art

 

I appreciate what you are saying - but you clearly failed to read what I wrote - I looked at wires listed website, then I looked at the other posts he had posted - and it seemed to me, since he has used the same response he now uses here that he was just trolling for an argument and not a real answer - so before you decide I am not a "good representative" do some diligence and check wires web site and other posts - then tell me if a single line in a post was inappropriate - I think not.

 

After almost 30 years in the art, I am a great spokesman for Hapkido - maybe a little short on patience with trolls...