"What the World has Forgotten"

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by flashlock, Feb 10, 2008.

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  1. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    I'm with Banpen (damn you all for beating me to the punch). I don't think you have a clue about real SD situations if you think that you can just rush in and take him down and it's over in three seconds as you get the mount and do your GnP thing.
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Ke?po Guy: Agreed. You would be more skilled at that.

    So what? That doesn't conflict with my Ke?po instructor's belief that you don't need grappling for self defense, that its need is exagerrated in UFC because of the rules.

    I often get the impression many MAP members think they have to prepare for a BJ Penn or Antonio Nogueira for a bar fight. "I need my striking skills AND my grappling skills, man!" In reality, it's just going to be some drunk loser, and you'll probabaly be half drunk yourself.

    Me, if I can't run, I'll just kick him in the groin, punch him in the throat, or stick my fingers in his eyes to buy me time while he's recoiling to get away. Or something like that.

    I don't need to know how to grapple or wrestle on the ground like that.

    I think your heads in the UFC world, not reality for a street fight/ self defense situation. I just don't see it being so complex.
  3. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    oh, snap!

    nutriding irony for the win!
  4. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    Cute, but the histories and evidence of effectiveness between BJJ and kenpo are so obviously different your ploy falls flat.
  5. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    For self defense? I dunno about that...

    And regardless, thats not the point. Point is the analogy is just as stupid based on nutriding and being niave, not effectiveness.
  6. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    "Snaps", flaming, and superficial retorts are easier on the internet than a real arguement.

    Enjoy 'em!
  7. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Of course they are.

    But real argument has to involve a dialoge. I see none. I see an agenda. I see a monologe.

    For real debate to occur you need:

    -Love/respect/equality among everyone involved (you clearly state you dont)
    -Humility (haha need I say more?)
    -Critical Thinking

    Amongst others.

    Without these basic things you are just walking around with earmuffs on and singing your own song.
  8. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    dont get me wrong dude, im really pulling for you.

    I hope that you are always happy with your training, and you never have to use it in a real situation. And if you do have to use it, I hope you are successful with it. Because if you arent, then it truely feels earth-shattering. Trust me, I know from first-hand experience. I really hope it works out for you. Only advice I can give you is to keep your eyes open and really try and listen to what some of these people are saying. Alot of them have real experiences, which you just dont. That doesnt mean you are stupid ;)
  9. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I was aware of this when I made my post, but the point still stands. Your arguments run uncannily similar to every delusional traditional purist's rationalizations for their arts less than wholly dominant performance.

    Answer me this...Is it more efficient from a self defense POV, to effectively control (on ground), strike to create openings and then submit an opponent, or to attempt to overcome with a limited arsenal trying to sink in submissions with pure grappling finesse? Which format ends the fight faster in your favor?

    Also, is it more efficient to learn how to time and finish a fight standing with one clean strike to the jawline, or rather to grab and take a fight to the ground for a prolonged period of time (prolonged, in terms of comparison to the chance of a one-hit victory)?
  10. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Without reading the entire thread, I want to point out that regardless of the whole striking/bjj debate, one thing BJJ simply can't deal with is weapons. On the street, if someone stabs you or tries to brain you with a lead pipe, BJJ just doesn't cut it. You need something like Escrima for that sort of thing. Just a thought (that happens to be a pretty irrefutable point).
  11. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Personally, and i stress PERSONALLY, i always viewed bjj and ground fighting as a last resort when it comes to self defense.

    Thats the LAST place I want to be when the crap hits the fan. Though if it does happen, it is nice to know.

    or at least be semi-competent.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2008
  12. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise


    BJJ might have a few answers, but without specific training, i agree it does fall short.

    Though I am no exponent in BJJ, that is just my own opinion from what i have learned/seen.
  13. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    That's pretty much my fighting philosophy.
  14. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise


    I just realized you are older than me.

    That really creeps me out.

  15. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    We need to get our hands on those taser knives when I get down there to train. Gotta grab some random untrained person and have them attack us with the knife, and see who's more successful. Me using BJJ concepts, trying to clinch up, controlling the blade, and you doing...well whatever it is you do :)
  16. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    But you're smart enough to not make the foolish assumption that just becuase two things are superficially very similiar, they are actually quite different.

    "... or to attempt to overcome with a limited arsenal trying to sink in submissions with pure grappling finesse." What the heck is that supposed to mean? Use some proper English so I can try to make sense of what the heck you're asking. :D

    I'm a glass half-empty guy, so the latter for me. :D
  17. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    And you should be smart enough to spot historical revisionism (BJJ dominating the early no-rules MMA scene) and MA purist propaganda when you see it.

    What I said was is it more efficient to try and win solely using grappling techniques, or is it more efficient to mix strikes into your ground game?

    What?? You're a pessimist so you choose the longer road to walk? Oh wait, I see, you're looking at this in terms of gambling. Perhaps it was poor wording on my part, but having a clean efficient stand-up game leaves nothing to chance.
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I am more than willing to bet that if ANYONE is attacked viciously that they will instinctively use strikes trips or ANYTHING at that time.Unless they have deliberately "trained" to restrict themselves. Which would be crazy.

    The first thing to go out the window is THE PLAN.

    Regards koyo

    I am with kempofist and the others on this one.
  19. Baichi

    Baichi Valued Member

  20. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    So Flash, I've heard you say things in this thread like "Bjj is great on the street, but not ideal in the UFC or on mats", "BJJ is all you need, no need to cross-train" and my favorite,
    Kind of a turn-around, neh? Really, look at the way you talk about other styles, and sincerely think about what you're saying here. You're talking like the people you usually go after. If you'll look, you might see some parallels here.
    EDIT: Whoops. Looks like someone beat me to it. I really don't think "But this is different" is much of a response, especially after the quote I posted here.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2008
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