"What the World has Forgotten"

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by flashlock, Feb 10, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    How much time to you spend defending good, solid punches? If it's not at least once a week, you may find yourself wetting your pants the first time you get hit with one. If you're still concious.

    You're assuming you control the clinch. And if there isn't room to run, there might not be the room to complete the takedown. You've been in crowded bars before, right? Shoulder-to-shoulder, there's barely enough room to walk. If guys stumble, they grab whatever's close to them, including other people or countertops or what have you. I've tried to take guys down in a confined area before, it changes things.

    The risk of be being taken down isn't one I take lightly. That's why I train in things like wrestling, judo, CSW, and BJJ. Crosstraining shines through.

    You're unable to defend it with reason?

    Let's assume I'm really, really slow. Why would you want to spend a minute or so fighting a guy when an accurate, powerful punch can end things instantly?
  2. sudo02

    sudo02 Valued Member

    flashlock, how many real fights have you been in? Don't mention from junior school.

    Bjj, wrestling, judo its all the back up system to a failed pre-emptive strike, (open or closed fist) you need to face facts, if you fall to the floor that's when you use your bjj to finish or get back to the feet.

    Just look at that vid when he butts him at the bar, end of fight just like that, it would have took you at least 30 sec to lock the sub and render him helpless. During this time anything could happen from having a stiletto shoe up your **** by his girlfriend to being kicked to death on the floor.

    Your instructor is stuck in the past as well, is this the same instructor who says
    headbutt him first then RNC.

    Have you heard of geoff Thompson?
  3. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    When I question my instructor, he can simply demonstrate what he means. On a forum, you can't do that.

    I believe that if some of the loudest critics here had an opportunity to work with my instructor, they'd see a little more room for his point of view.

    It is beyond me how you can go to your brown belt or black belt BJJ instructor, and ask him or her if you need to add Muy Thai to your BJJ to make it street effective, and those instructors supposedly will say, yes, you need to add the muy thai, BJJ alone isn't enough, you'll get into trouble if all you have is BJJ.

    And it's even more beyond me that they would say the reason for this is recent UFC matches.

    I'm glad I don't go along with the crowd. I'm glad you're all embarrassed. I believe I'm on the right path and whether anyone else is or isn't is none of my business.

    Sincerely, good luck and continued success in your training--I just don't agree with many of you about the limitations of BJJ. Maybe you can find some respect for me in at least standing up and defending my misguided, minority beliefs.

    I'm out of this thread.
  4. sudo02

    sudo02 Valued Member

    flashlock has left the thread, he has gone to learn boxing to avoid the stiletto attack.
  5. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    I think they'd say that largely because they're intelligent, take a critical look at what they're doing, and don't have blinders on.

    But I could be wrong.
  6. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member


  7. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    LOLable :)
  8. komuso

    komuso Valued Member

    Hi all,

    actually Flashlock I do have respect for you. Not for the whole 'standing up for your arts' thing. Doing that in the face of overwhelming logic isnt going to get you any props from me at least (not that I am silly enough to think that would concern you). No, I get your passion, which is a positive thing, and I imagine that you are a great student given the loyalty that you have for your teacher. So yes, respect for those things. And for what it is worth I havent seen anyone on this thread hating on you big time, it seems to have mostly just been folks with a variety of genuine concerns for the implications of what you have said,

    which is a form of respect in itself, no?

  9. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Flashlock, your instructor is a black belt. I think he has a bit more skill in fighting one-dimensionally than you do. You repeatedly neglect that glaring point.

    You say we won't find Chuck Liddell, Rampage or whoever on the street, well I also would like to train for self defense purposes, and not need to work my ass off for 5-6 years just so I can be skilled enough to take someone out with an intentionally limited arsenal.

    Whatever. This seems to be the latest fad you're on. I can't wait for the day you get a little bored with BJJ and take some Boxing classes, and then go on and on about how Boxing is the greatest thing since velcro....or even better, take some Krav Maga classes and then we'll REALLY get to hear what's what in the street. After all, have any of us had to beat down 14 RPG wielding Palestinians with our bare hands!? I can't wait!!! :)
  10. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Flashlock. I don't really expect you to answer or acknowledge this post, but I have to ask out of curiosity. Do your instructors know you often intentionally represent him and his school on the internet?

    Instead of starting a thread on the relative merits of BJJ for Self Defense, you'll start one saying, "My instructor thinks BJJ is a complete self defense art and there's no reason to study anything else." Your frequent use of "My instructor says/does/thinks..." is pretty bold.

    I wondered about this when you first came on the scene, and this thread has made me think about it again. Of course, if he knows and doesn't have a problem with it, great. If I ran a school and one of my new students presumed to argue his interpretations of what he thinks are my opinions, I'd be ****ed. That's why I'm asking.
  11. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Normally I'd agree, but to the best of my knowledge his instructor put his thoughts in writing on their school website. Flashlock is just regurgitating those archaic and flawed ideas over here.
  12. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    Fights are won on defense. In other words, it's the fighter who's defense collapses first is the one who loses the fight. Also, more battles have been won by the element of surprise than any other factor. Gene LeBell, arguably at least as skilled a grappler as any of the Gracie clan, once noted that when karate practitioners first started hitting people with a basic front kick, it was an "unbeatable" technique...for a little while. It wasn't long though before that "surprise" technique was figured out and people figured out how to defend against it and counter it.

    In the early UFC's, BJJ did rule the roost because the opponents that Rorion chose to fight in the competiton had no clue how to defend or counter the game Royce brought to the table. OTOH, Royce was very skilled at, and well prepared for what his opponents were bringing. Even those with a grappling background were not ready for the depth and versatility of submissions that Royce had. A very large part of Royce's wins were based on the element of surprise and the fact that he capitalized on an area that most people were very weak in. And that most of the fighters had no clue in how to defend against. There were a lot of people at that time though that were not part of the early UFC's that did have a clue, but were never invited to the party BTW.

    These days, people have seen the light and now (at least those who did not bury their heads in the sand) realize the value of a good ground and submissions game. Whether it be wrestling, sambo, judo, BJJ or any combo of the above, grappling and submissions are important part of being an effective fighter or effective at self defense. Since most progressive martial artists are very familiar with the strategies and at least the basic techniques of submission grappling, the surprise factor is gone and now (at least skilled) fighters know how to defend against it. The free ride is and has been over for BJJ for quite a while now. BJJ'ers may have more depth to their grappling due to specialization, but TKD'ers have more depth to their kicking game too :)

    The way the early UFC's were promoted/marketed was far more of a turn off than something that "sold" me on the value of BJJ. When UFC 1 made it's debut, I had been a black belt in JJJ for over a decade and had also rolled a lot with some very high level Judoka. I was also a 4th dan in Hapkido at the time (though not truly a grappling system per se, there was a LOT of work on takedowns, throws and jointlocks). My first reaction on seeing the early UFC tapes was "those guys couldn't defend against that"? My wife who was a brown belt at the time bust out laughing watching the tape. I told her at the time that if this thing ever caught on, at least maybe it wouldn't be so much like pulling teeth to get my students to work on their grappling.

    I figured the "fad" would die down pretty soon and that would be the end of it. Another BIG turn off for me towards BJJ at the time was not only how Rorion's promotion so closely resembled pro wrasslin' (I have respect for real wrestling and rarely call the sports entertainment version by the same name, though the guys are good stuntmen) marketing, but also how certain members of the Gracie clan were selling instructor's courses in the martial arts profesional industry magazines and that they would test you to be a BJJ instructor by videotape. To me at the time, this killed any credibility of BJJ as a legitimate and credible system.

    Luckily for me, my instructors had a little more forsight and brought in Ralf and Cesar Gracie to do teaching programs in our schools when they first came over to the USA. We had already been working with Mike Swain for quite a long time on a regular basis and also Wally Jay, so at least our black belts had a decent base for grappling. Despite my initial turn off to BJJ, I came to respect it as a very powerful addition to my ground and submission skills.

    I don't want my post to come off like I'm bashing BJJ. Over the years, it has become a major part of my ground and submission strategy, but it is FAR from even a complete grappling system, it also lacks effective ground striking. Let alone a wide range of stand up grappling or striking skills. IMO, Flashlock's arguments are no more valid than an Olympic TKD player saying that all that his sport does is all that you need for real self defense and that it is a complete system because his 3rd dan (equivalent to a BJJ black belt in training time)Sa Bum Nim says so. And that his Sa Bum Nim would beat up any of you guys if you were there in person and not just on the internet. "Boy, he would show all of you" :rolleyes: :love: .
  13. cluebird

    cluebird For various reasons --

    I'm not sure if someone has addressed this argument before. BTW, I'm wondering if you realize that pulling guard is not really the best option on the str33t?

    - I'm not sure if you've realized this or not, but you are vulnerable for a nice grap, twist, and rip of your nutsack.

    - You will probably be getting your back ground into pavement.

    - If your opponent is smart, he will lift you up and slam you into the pavement. Lights out.

    - If he does none of the above, he will kick and stomp after breaking your guard, while you lie there with an open guard, hoping he comes back, when you eat someone's boot.

    I've also noticed some people claiming that BJJ is not a "complete" grappling program or whatnot. This is a bit odd. Anyone who does their research will know that BJJ does not have striking on the ground, neither judo nor wrestling, has this, and all are well-respected, good fighting styles.

    People need to get their heads out of their asses. Of course BJJ won't make you a good boxer. If you want striking, go get it, don't complain that BJJ doesn't cover ground striking...
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2008
  14. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    Flashlock's argument was that BJJ IS a complete system and ALL that you need for self defense. That is the point that I and others are addressing about BJJ being a "complete" system. BJJ is an excellent system, but like all other systems, it has holes which the vast majority of BJJ practitioners will address rather than pretend they don't exist or blame as something artificial created by MMA rules.
  15. Baichi

    Baichi Valued Member

    The whole "BJJ is all!" crap is nonsense, but the tired old crap above is also nonsense.

    Take it easy already... :rolleyes:
  16. cluebird

    cluebird For various reasons --

    I'm not claiming BJJ is the "complete" system. Far from it, I'm saying that for what it is, it is definitely among the best in its class.
  17. cluebird

    cluebird For various reasons --

    I'm takin it easy bro, but gimme a break. Pulling guard in a real fight? You gotta be kidding me...
  18. Baichi

    Baichi Valued Member

    Predetermining what you will or will not do before the situation presents itself? You gotta be kidding me...
  19. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Cluebird, please do the thread a favor and try not to fight ignorance with ignorance.

    I'm not sure if you realized this, but if you've trained at least a few weeks in BJJ no one should be able to grab or twist or rip your nutsack unless they somehow have discovered how to redivert blood to their brain while in a triangle choke.

    Side note: If you're wearing any material firmer than a skirt, it should be quite difficult for anyone to grab, twist or rip your nutsack.

    Double side note: Anatomically speaking your nutsack is the part of the organ situated the furthest out of reach underneath, and in a closed guard position is nearly impossible to get at.

    Final thoughts: Get a clue (get it? It's irony! the "cluebird" needs to get a clue! Funny? Anyone? No?......damn)

    OUCH!!!! WHY oh WHY did I decide to fight naked!??? Must be because I watched all those Van Damme movies! I thought the sight of my bare back and chest would intimidate by adversary in a primal fashion! Stupid stupid stupid me! Now I got cluebird grabbing my sack AND grinding my lats into the broken glass all over teh street!

    And if you were smart, you'd realize just how hard it is to knock someone out with a guard slam. Especially against a competent grappler.

    Oh noes! Not the boots!!! Anything but the boots!

    a) He breaks the guard without getting subbed?
    b) Stomping a grappler who is waiting in open guard is that easy?
    c) <<snip>>

    Neither does ANY system. The concept of efficient GnP for the most part is addressed by MMA camps. This is because GnP is best utilized in a mix of stand-up and grappling fighting. As far as "completeness" is concerned, read the other thread. It has nothing to do with striking on the ground or not.

    You first

    Who said they wanted BJJ to make them a good boxer?

    Who was complaining that BJJ doesn't cover ground striking? (It does btw. From a defensive POV. Defending basic GnP tactics from inside the guard and from under mount/side mount particularly are things usually addressed within the first couple of months at the latest).

    Last I checked Flashlock was arguing you didn't need striking. The rest of us felt that cross-training was essential.

    Did you even read the thread? Or was this just an attempt at throwing out more ignorant, crappy, yet idealistic BS onto the discussion to counter Flashlocks ignorant, crappy, yet idealistic BS?
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2008
  20. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    uhh, cluebird, welcome to last week. most of us are advocating that BJJ is perfect except for FL. read more carefully before you troll next time.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page