"What the World has Forgotten"

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by flashlock, Feb 10, 2008.

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  1. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Lol, no; I'd punch them out once I had the knife pinned; then quickly disarm it, then punch some more.
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Oh, you meant the part that works?

    OOoooooh......I see...I forgot. You still think stuff like that works. Silly me :)
  3. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    That's a bit of a loaded, abstract, contrived choice, now isn't it? For now, I'll have to refuse to answer on those grounds. :cool:
  4. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    Check out my instructor's credentials, and tell me again I'm going in the wrong direction.

    I've done 7 years of TKD with a heavy JKD influence, 2 years of wrestling, boxed with a bronze medalist one on one for 6 months, 2 years of aikido, and a spattering of ninjutsu.

    All that sucks compared to the mere 8 months I've done BJJ. The skills I have now as a 33 year old w/ 8 months (at best) of BJJ would allow me to crush my old 22 year old self in what I thought was my prime.
  5. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    Uh, that's MISTER Flashy to you, pal. :cool:

    You don't need solid stand up to throw a sucker punch - let's call it for what it is. You'll break your hand. If you're in that "conversation" range, I'd rather throw an elbow, which has no breaking risks, requires very little training, and you're so close, it's difficult to miss. Pre-emptive elbow or headbutt over the punch in my book.

    You don't have to go to the ground to use grappling; so clinch.

    If you do it right, you probably won't get hit in the face any more likely than your "defensive toolbox" of bobbing and weaving.

    Yeah, getting punched in the face in a UFC match - the point of the thread that striking's potential is exagerrated by the rules. Thanks for boistering my point.

    Neither striking-based arts nor grappling-based arts can help much vs multiple attackers COORDINATING an attack against you.


    I'm aware of this, but not one of my critics are Gracie JJ black belts, so they can all get . . . some time to think about the article a little more seriously.
  6. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    You worry about your own learning, OK?

    By that logic, if I roll a die wanting a 6, and a 6 comes up, it's not luck?

    No, it's Rock-Paper-Scissors-BJJ, and BJJ beats them all. :D

    People go to the ground, willingly or not, for many reasons: they're taken down because they didn't sprawl or it failed, they clinch because one's getting punched too much or whatever, they trip and fall together, one guy is knocked down and mounted, etc., etc. Closing the distance to grappling range is a relatively simple strategy to implement, either through take downs or simple clinches--it's pretty natural, too to go from striking range to the clinch. Boxers do it constantly.

    The thread is about how striking is exagerrated in the UFC because of ther rules. Read my instructor's article again, carefully.

    Tell Paul Vunak, I got it from him. (And you're being petty).

    Have you read post #1?

    Bring on the kung fu eye gouges: http://groundzero.com.au/diaryview.php?diaryid=16

    Crosstraining for MMA is more necessary becuase the striking is exagerrated because of the rules.

    Strikes are fine, but use the right ones for the street: knees, elbows, and headbutts. All that punching with MMA gloves is not realistic or recommended for self defense.

    So go to a BJJ club and challenge the instructor, tell him he isn't allowed to throw punches and you can do both. You'll get your ass kicked. Sorry to be blunt, but I'm tired of all this theorizing from guys who supposedly respect and love BJJ so much, then turn around and say it's incomplete and can't deal with basic striking. Sorry that I'm getting a little frustrated, but I don't get you guys, I really don't... and that's OK, as they say...

    I stole the line from Stephen K. Hayes.

    You and your back up plans if you can't take him to the ground. Just take him to the ground, jeesh!

    My instructor has these dopey advertisements up for his club all over Melbourne on bright yellow paper: him standing there in a kimono, arms crossed, with the slogan: "Worrier or Warrior"?

    Think about it.....

    No, it's not like that because it's a helluva lot easier to get the fight to grappling range than it is to KO anyone. Have you trained in takedowns or pummeling or anything? You act like it's so hard. Maybe against some trained grappler or MMA fighter, but for the street?

    I've taken wrestlers, BJJ guys, JKD-ers, aikidoka, amature boxers, and ninjas down to a clinch or forced the grappling range within seconds. You fent high and there is an automatic response to blink the eyes, then you shoot in. Of course I've been stopped... then you try it again later if the fight just doesn't natrally progress to the ground anyway.

    Why do you think it's so hard to close, especially against some street thug?

    Any strategy can blow up in your face, so if you have one, make it simple, tested, and effective, and know it so well you have a good chance of implementing it under extream stress.

    Yes, punching can end a fight much faster than grappling, but that comes with risks (nothing is free): breaking a finger or knuckle, and standing there exchanging blows increases the chances that YOU'LL get knocked out. BJJ beat all the strikers asses. Sorry to be blunt, but "the world has forgotten". :D
  7. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    I'll take the punch. Nothing to wet your pants about.

    If you don't have room, you're just going to end up in a clinch, and your grappling skills shine through. Just like in your other posts, you imagine it's so difficult to implement BJJ's basic strategy of closing the distance. I just don't agree from evidence and a little experience. I've gone so far as to say I'll take a few punches just to close the distance. Yeah, I risk being knocked out but you share in the risk as well, being taken down.

    You can use open palms. What I mean is you have complete positional domination, he can't move his head, and you can't really miss. Gracies finished many fights this way, wrapping the opponent's own arm around his neck, and just punching them in the face until the knockout or tap out.

    You're just whining. I wrote a two second blip about one possibility, and you're writing a damn Critique of Reason off of it. Don't be so literal.

    I've answered all this a million times I think.
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Maybe you don't get us because we can enjoy something and respect it without having to hold a completely unrealistic view of it. It is possible to love something and still recognise it has flaws/weaknesses. Your view to most of us is embarassing because it suggests that everyone practicing BJJ has the kind of unrealistic and exaggerated view of it you hold. The point that might tip you of that you might be taking things a bit extreme is that I can't see any other BJJ practitioners agreeing with you even ones who have much longer experience than you. I'm sure your instructor agrees based on his original post but I wouldn't take all my opinions from my instructor uncritically like you seem to be doing. I suspect if your instructor was advocating incorporating striking you would be here arguing how it is completely necessary.
  9. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member



    You're taking the forum opinion of "it's good to be well rounded" and questioning our dedication to BJJ?

    You have to put in alot more hours on the mat before you start talking that way.
  10. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    A new avatar for Flash? :D

    Attached Files:

  11. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Sounds to me I hit a little too close to home in the logic department. Loaded question my ass. I think your problem is, your illusionary image just got a crack in it, and you'd rather look the other way rather than reassess your ideas on the matter.
  12. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    I strongly suggest you back up, sweetheart, before we make a concerted effort to get your ass banned from this forum.

    Just because we aren't nutriding doesn't mean we don't respect BJJ. Just because we recognize certain limitations does not mean we are disrespcting the art. Saying one ought to be well-rounded and twisting into some bizarro world opinion like this because we don't agree with your instructor is a serious misrepresentation of our comments.

    Get your head out of your ass before you make even more enemies here than you already have.
  13. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    He has enemies? I kinda like'm. Can I keep him mommy!???
  14. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    :topic: Off topic, but this is really interesting to me, because it's EXACTLY what I used to argue on political boards when I was called a communist, accused of not supporting our troops and everything else for disagreeing with our national foreign policy.

    The way I see it, there are two possibilities. First, Flash is a fanatic, in which case this kind of blind zeal is difficult to break through. I'm just hoping Flash is self aware enough that in a year or so he looks back and is embarrassed.

    Either that, or he's just having fun trolling, which is fine, too. If so, he's spending a lot of time doing it which I guess is his choice.
  15. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Bzzt. Does not compute. Does not compute. Bzzt. :rolleyes:
  16. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Really . . . this is hilariously bad. It IS incomplete. All it has is clinch and groundwork. You don't generally learn dirty boxing or knees and elbows, and you don't generally learn striking, and even if you do it's covered as a sidenote.


    I mean come on. If somebody knows how to punch it's going to add to their game. If somebody knows how to kick it's going to add to their game.
  17. Baichi

    Baichi Valued Member

    Did anyone mention yet that BJJers generally suck at takedowns?

    LOL, just stirring!

    Anyway, it seems that everyone gets wrapped up in whatever they've invested their identity in. Everything you can gain (provided you train realistically) is a positive as long as you keep your eyes open to both the benefits and the limitations.
  18. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    If you can't make him behave, he's going straight to the vet!
  19. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    In order to throw a powerful, accurate punch, you need solid standup. That's why these bar brawls go on forever, and fights where one guy's a good striker end pretty quickly.

    There's no guarentee you'll break your hand. In fact I'd say the odds are against it. In the instance that you do, if you KO the guy, what does it matter? And if you don't, don't you think you could fight through the pain in order to finish the job?

    I've hit guys in the dome of the skull before. Haven't broken my hand. I was stationed aboard an aircraft carrier for three and a half years, and there was a fistfight at least once every underway in our berthing alone. Yet none of those guys broke their hands. And don't think for a second they were pulling their punches.

    These guys wailed on each other for the better part of three minutes. This included a few grounded punches, where you theorize that they should have broken their hands. If they did, they didn't show it. This fight lasted about a minute, with hard, wild punches being thrown. Another fight where the guy who dropped his hands and had no head movement took the worst of it, as those who are untrained in something like boxing typically do.

    More bareknuckle fights:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISjQB3_EQMo&NR=1"]Bare Knuckle Fight - YouTube[/ame]

    Something to take note of: there are repeated punches to the head. If their hands are broken, they don't show it. Also, even though you've said that GNP is easier in a cage because of the padding, again using the argument that in the street the fighters would break their hands on concrete, there are a number of instances where GNP is occuring. It seems that even untrained brawlers have a hard time mistaking concrete for their opponent's skull.

    You still have to get past punches to get to that point. And grappling only in a clinch doesn't finish the fight or necessarily save you from taking damage. Are you there to hug the guy or end the fight?

    Spoken like someone with no experience in either case.

    The quote was made in reference to what was going on during a fight, but I didn't see any quallifiers. You still haven't proven that "striking's potential is exagerrated". The potential is to end a fight quickly without having to go to the ground. That was proven in early, no-rules UFC's as well as video evidence of street confrontations.

    Dude, please. A guy was being attacked by a crowd! Coordinated attack... who are you getting jumped by, SWAT teams? The SAS? A football team? Striking ended those situations quickly and with no visible damage to the strikers, where a grappling strategy would have ended in disaster. How many quallifiers are you going to keep adding on to this? Is it going to get to the point where "striking won't help you against undead Klingons in kevlar vests with adamantium chainsaws"?

    :rolleyes: No, but most of us train under one. OK, mine's a brown belt. Ya got me.
  20. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Fine, but you're jumping to conclusions without examining all availible evidence. It seems to be a pattern.

    Punching is a skill. Rolling a unloaded die, not so much. Poor analogy.

    Watch those street fights. See how many go to the ground. See how many STAY there.

    I did. He's assuming that under the old rules, things would be different. Maybe they would. But he's ignoring the fact that nobody back in the day knew BJJ. And the fact that we've got a much better fighter now than then. And the fact that even under the old rules, fighter's don't suddenly forget how to sprawl, or defend a triangle choke. Black belt or not, his argument is very flawed.

    Alright, I'll put it another way. If you're being literal, how many fights have you seen or heard of that have gone for two hours? Or even more than a few minutes?

    Yes. Old Gracie Challenge matches had rules. MMA, which is it's progression, has rules. They're not that different.

    Prove it.

    Oppinions differ. Hock doesn't like 'em, Hatmaker does. Thompson says it's fine, WWII combatives included no punches. 90% of the upper-body strikes I train are punches, and when you're under stress it's your natural inclination to make fists. It's also a little easier to dislocate fingers if you're using open-hand strikes. Punches give me more range than elbows, knees and headbutts.

    I might take you up on that if I find someone comparable in weight who hasn't doen any crosstraining. In all likelyhood, though, I'll be asked to wear gloves...

    This isn't theorizing. BJJ is a groundfighting art. If they can't get it to the ground, they're done. Add to that the typically ****-poor or non-existant striking taught in BJJ and it's no contest against a "sprawl and brawl" fighter. Again, Renzo vs. Henderson, Diaz vs. Noons, and Royler vs. Yamamoto. Hell, for the most part, good TD defense is all you need to negate BJJ strategy as you've presented it.

    My first "real fight" was in my senior year of high school. My plan was to get the guy to the ground. Problem: I had no TD skills. Oh, I still got him down... eventually... after taking lots of shots to the back of the head and upper back. Which is why I'll argue that the old "elbow to the spine" thing is a myth too, 'cause I've been there. But anyway, you're making the assumption that the karate guys made back in the early UFC's: that Plan A will work. You're basically admitting, with this attitude, that if you can't get the guy down, you're screwed. Which you basically are. While I'm not about to jump on the Flashlock Fan Club Bus of Love, I really hope you don't have to find this out the hard way.

    Extensively. Have you tried it with the guy was trying to knock you out? And again, you're assuming that the guy on the street doesn't have any training. Why? I know you ain't the the States anymore, but just about one out of every five dudes I meet has had some training, usually high school wrestling. Out of the five guys in my department at my last job, four of us were comfortable grappling. Three of us were pretty good.

    Yeah, sometimes that "automatic response" is to be punched in the mush. Maybe I attract badasses or something, but because I've met so many people that I wouldn't assume were fighters, or tough guys, I'm not going to assume anyone I meet is incapable of fighting 'til proven otherwise.

    And you can't rely on the ability to "try it again later" in a 30-second bar fight. You get stopped once, the guy has a chance to hammer you.

    And if that one blows up in your face, have another that you can impliment. My basic strategy is the one-and-done preemptive strike. Failing that, I can brawl, clinch, or take it to the ground, depending on the circumstances. You've just got one strategy, and it relies on the other guy not being capable of hitting you.

    You throw a combination pre-emptively. If it works, you run away like a scared little rabbit. If it doesn't, you use your backup training in things like Judo, Muay Thai, and BJJ to get you out of the scrap. And as noted, the hand doesn't automatically shatter the instant it's used to fight.

    I provided a list of guys who were BJJers who got KTFO. Of course, you're still going to complain that they were under "rules". BFD. So were the first UFC's. Accurate punching and tough sprawling has nothing to do with whether you may be stood up for periods of inactivity.
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