I think Jibran's post explains it all, it also shows a lot about the BJK and its workings, be it that the BJK functions on a very large scale... Regards, Tom.
Fair point about poor students in the past :evil: it is important to teach the fundamentals (kihon) and many of the shihan do this in their lessons. There is an issue if people only decide to attend Soke's classes and he has openly stated that people should go to the shihan to learn the fundamentals. Problems can occur if people only attend Soke's classes because they think they have covered the 'basics' This leads to an ability/reality mismatch. The Jinenkan interview is revealing about how the training was undertaken previously in the Bujinkan. Manaka does make the point that although he has opted for a more didactic approach there is still a need for reflection and self-directed learning needed ( students have to work some stuff out for themselves, can't spoon feed the lot ). So it would appear that no matter which model of learning you favour this element is still required. to SWC Sifu Ben's earlier point: "Do I need to post videos of self taught martial artists so you can see the results of the "steal the technique" method?" Sure. If you wish ( there is a Bad Vids thread especially for this ). Don't think this helps much. If we take Aikido for example, then it is straightforward to find a vid showing a bad example of someone who has failed to steal the technique but you would also need to include vids of Shioda who clearly did steal the techniques.
Aikido is a good thing to bring up because there is that gulf between hippie Aikido on the one hand and then the didactic approach taken by people like Shioda-sensei, Tomiki-sensei, and Saito-sensei, who drilled kihon intensely (and their branches continue to). That doesn't mean that 'stealing the technique' was not possible, of course, as the three of them certainly did it but they recognised that it's accompanied by a grounding in kihon. Actually continuing on the point of kihon we might add that Ueshiba-sensei's early students all had a grounding in other martial arts (they required a reference from a highly-ranked instructor) so they were in a position to more easily absorb things than an absolute newcomer to budo. Similarly, Hatsumi-sensei's early students were high level judoka, and so on.
A teaching method is just that. There is no one system that works for everyone nor is there any reason to create or by restricted by dogma, even if it is in the name of progress, efficiency, or success. More importantly is how you make sure that you learn. Some people can't or won't understand that, and that is fine. For them, they should seek out a system that caters to their learning method. The problem arises when what you want to learn doesn't match/gel with how you learn. So do you alter how you learn or do you stick doggedly to what you already know? Learning is always your own responsibility because it's your life and you have to cash your own checks. You can think up any logic you want to disagree but in the end, you are left with yourself and your journey. The traditional arts are treasures of the country/culture that they come from. If we are not a disciple of that art, how we feel about it and how it is propagated is ultimately irrelevant. We are on the outside looking in and commenting from our own cultural hubris and assumptions. These things were not taught in school nor were they for everyone. Their goals and means were not necessarily that of a college or modern day martial arts school business. You don't have to like that but if you don't respect that, you will never understand such a tradition.
I was speaking of the method in general not just of the Buj. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough Dean Doing something because someone else did it is not a defensible reason for an inferior method. When better methods arrive traditions change and again it is not exactly a dominant teaching method across Asia. If I used the same argument for psychology for instance we'd still be trying to exorcise demons because those other methods might work better but hey, it's tradition right? There's no difference between trying to pass on one methodology and trying to pass on another except that in this case you're invested in the tradition. A modern example is perfectly relevent. Passing on skills is the same whether it's wood carving, medical skills, or football. "Do it like this, not like this, because...when...how...why... etc." And this is the thing. I'm not saying it can't be done but that one produces more reliable results across the multitude of students and the ones who want to or can "steal the technique" can do that anyway. Ueshiba's students are a pertinent example of that. EDIT: and to be honest I don't think anyone would buy the idea that if you wanted to train your ninja to be able to carry out assignments successfully you would teach them by expecting them to "steal the technique" instead of explaining things. That's not an effective way to train a group of supposedly skilled operatives OR modern students.
Even then, as Amdur talks about, there is 'stealing' going on. There's stuff you're going to pick up, if you have the ability and skills, from your teacher that can't directly be taught. Actually a pretty good example of that is how Yoshinkan, Iwama, etc aikidoka don't train in how to 'flow', they understand that it's something that will come from mastery of technique (and indeed, 'stealing')– which actually works for them, whereas the worst aikido tries to teach the flow and fails miserably.
I think we have an understanding then but there are also things which can't be indirectly taught and things which can't be indirectly taught easily. If someone isn't explaining things that's called bad instruction.
Indeed, but judging by the account that Manaka sensei gives, for instance, they were taught the basic techniques. It was the nuance of kata, and so on, that they had to 'steal' (and the nuance of basics as observed through use).
Relying on words shows a lack of creativity and a dogmatic approach. What if the student is deaf or the teacher is a mute? If you study Chinese traditional arts, how could you miss this aspect of Confucian influenced arts and cultures? Even the term sifu shows this concept. Same with deshi. In a vertical society and hierarchy, things are conceptually different than a horizontal one. No, you don't have to like it or think it's the best teaching method. However, to miss its importance is either deliberate or due to a lack of inquiry. Stealing the technique is important for subtler aspects of movement that cannot be explained. If your art doesn't have such aspects, than it is not really an issue. Bad instruction isn't the issue in traditional arts, the onus is on the disciple(not student), not the master. The master shares, the disciple must learn to steal. This is an integral part of the process and teaching. It is found in religion, philosophy, and across a wide range of arts. Concepts like 見習う(minarai) is one aspect of them 美徳(bitoku) of Japanese culture. One can dismiss it out of hand but that only shows one's own lack of understanding and cultural sensitivity more than anything else.
Not saying all you do is talk to your students. That would not be martial arts; that would be a knitting circle. I'm saying that not explaining things to them when you could do so is the sign of a poor or incompetent instructor. Didn't miss it. Don't have time for obfuscation and bad instruction where two minutes of verbals will do. If I asked a question I was given an answer. There were times where I was given an aswer which didn't make sense (due to the language barrier with certain people) and had to "steal the technique" and then was told I had done so correctly or incorrectly. If I chose to waste my students' time by making them do the same instead of simply explaining it I would be a poor instructor. It's called learning from other people's experience. It's why we have martial arts instead of fighting like hominids. I don't think it's the best teaching method. That is what I have been saying. Glad you finally clued in. You teach effectively by showing, telling, and correcting, not obfuscating, letting them run around getting it wrong, not correcting them and then blaming the students for not "stealing the technique" correctly. Cultural sensitivity doesn't help much when someone is trying to knock your lights out. That shows a lack of practical understanding. All that matters then is whether you learned effectively or not. If you can explain things simply and concisely so that people can understand and apply and you choose to let them fail you are a bad instructor. There are no two ways about that. If I took the "steal" method where you don't explain and the method where you do explain and pitted them against each other in lab trials I know which would win out and so do you. I refer you back to my example of "this is how/when/why to use a jab." Yes you will have to learn certain things about how to use that jab through experience but if you can explain the how/when/why and don't, you are a bad instructor. Apparently
It's from a collection of quotations taken from Benjamin Cole’s training diary (dated 2nd of July, 1996) and made available online. Apparently these quotations were recorded during training at Ayase.
As I probably fall under the category of the elitist group I thought i'd respond to this. I love the Bujinkan arts and I am very fond of most people that I meet in the Bujinkan. I have been training for a very long time (30 years). Most of the time directly under one of the most skilled and greatest of the ****enno in his dojo. A great man whom I have the greatest respect for. He is very skilled at what I call Bujinkan training. A free mix of stuf from the ryu mixed with his own spirit and creation and influenced by others who do the same. He can make it work because he was already a skilled fighter before he started training in the BJK. What he taught me has value and has helped me do very well in the few violent encouters i've had. So for that i'm always greatful. In the last 15 years i've seen BJK training go very soft and seen a lot of poorly skilled people gain high ranks, without knowledge and without fighting skills. I didn't like the direction the BJK was going. 9 years ago I met the man who is now my teacher. When i met him it my eyes were opened and I saw a way of moving that was like the BJK but also cmpletey different than the mainstream I was used to. This man had a very deep knowledge of the nine ryuha. Including stuff that I never even know existed. And whats more he had the original densho in his possession and could show me this was not stuff he made up but stuff transmitted to him. He is a uchi deshi to Ishizuka sensei and a very personal student of Hatsumi sensei. He taught me the original Kihon Happo, the way Takamatsu sensei showed Hatsumi sensei and I had to relearn all my basics and basically start anew. Sanshin no kata new. All the ryuha kata, kamae etc all anew. The level of detail was immense, the forms very precise. And while i started learning under this man I could understand all the other forms I had learned in the past from my teachers and how and why they came into being. The mistakes and the missing information that led to their creation became clear. For me the difference is like night and day. So as an 'elitist' I also know the other side and respect it. I have been part of it for more then 20 years before I met my current master. Ive met and trained (together) with all the famous superstar shihan and lived in japan for a while. But I also know what is different if you do train in a direct line of transmission from one of the japanese shihan and Hatsumi sensei. Ive have seen where the BJK is going when you look at the mainstream and it is not a pretty picture eventhough there a skilled people in the mainstream. I see what they do as Bujinkan and not the nine ryuha. I love the BJK and that is why i'm advocating studying with the right teacher, in a direct line of transmission, that can really transmit the details of the ryuha, if you find the right master and he will teach yo it will rock your world. So call it elitist if you want i'm here voicing my opinion because I want the BJK to be better and for people to have the opportunity to learn the real deal, not some halfbaked fantasy of a dellusional 15th dan that thinks what he does works in real life because Hatsumi sensei has said he is good.
Excellent post Pankeeki!! I can relate to this 100%, This is my experience as well. Well done and well said.
Mr. Cole also claims (he made threads on the topic here) that technique is meaningless and that real martial arts is about using the magic of kukan ball sacks. I'm not even joking; you can find the threads if you search. Hatsumi sensei will say a lot of metaphorical things like "This is not a technique" before demonstrating... a technique. There's an entire industry of people who use quotes like that to justify their lack of skill or to back their agendas.
You see this a lot on facebook. Someone in Japan (foreign resident) teaches something or says something and mentions it on facebook and then everyone on facebook is teaching it in their class that week, like it was their idea, when they are just following the masses, they have no real connection to Japan and are just repeating what others say. It is really sad.
I haven't touched bujinkan much since my old dojo closes last november. I checked other styles in the months since, including: FMA, Iaido, Aikido, Krav, Shuai Jiao, Goju Ryu, Shin Atemi, a few other chinese styles and some dabbling in capoiera. Not a great deal stuck with me. Sadly I'm rethinking my training priorities right now. I still love running through Bujinkan stuff, and I want to get back into it, so hopefully the place I found recently that I am checking this week coming will respark my interest and I can continue. I just got to 1st dan before my old place shut. I have to say, in the other stuff I have tried, some of the things I picked up stuck with me. I'm by no means looking into competative fighting, and with back injuries, asthma, anxiety attacks etc, Im hardly in the best of health for aggressive sparring. That said, oppertunities to practice with resistance in the last few months has taught me alot
