like i said before in another thread, i learnt two varieties of karate before over several years and i feel that i learnt nothing about self defence. I want to learn how to defend myself in a real life scenario and not just how to win trophies. BBT, despite the bad rep it gets in this forum, suits that purpose quite well IMHO. We get conditioned to not panic when attacked in armed and unarmed scenarios. Anyway, i've already invested a fair bit of time, money and energy into this art. It makes no sense to start again in something else.
If it was such a bad way of teaching, why do you think it was so prevalent? If it yielded no results, the model would've probably changed. Still see remnants of it today, even in the school system. Not sure why you are so passionately decrying this method of teaching. I already pointed out what cultures this method was prevalent in. One can cry and moan all day long, that won't change the fact that this method of teaching was and still is used. It fits in tidily with Confucian philosophy, not sure what you were expecting?:dunno: There are a myriad of things that have to be felt or experienced to understand, things that cannot be explained but are taught through touch or experience. You are also under rating what one can learn by trying to figure out something for yourself. From koans to kata, this process was used to teach people how to learn, whether their Sensei was their or not.
From Ellis Amdur (who is about as far from the Bujinkan as you can get). Jump to the last paragraph if you like, though I would recommend reading the entire thing.
There is a little bit of cultural and historical ignorance going on here. In Japan, both in the present and the past it is and was very common to only pass on everything to one or two students per generation. To do that they had to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Remember Japan is not the USA, Canada, France, Uk or Australia. They have there own ways of doing things, and it's not wrong, its just that most of us don't like it. Especially in the past (100's of years ago) it was not always the best idea to openly teach everything to everyone and spoon feed them... Lets just say it might not be good for your health. Now most will probably call Bull on that and that's ok with me, but just remember in Japan the Expression (Sorry I do not have the kanji handy) "Warewa Nido Oshinai" There is a reason this phrase exists.
Apologies for this long post. The process of teaching/transmitting Japanese arts ( not just martial ) commonly follows a system - Shu-Ha-ri. Put simply it means learn the form, deviate from the form and finally discard the form. The following is taken from an essay by Yukiyoshi Takamura, of Shindo yoshin-ryu jujutsu, and I thought may be useful to the discussion: “Shu-ha-ri” literally means embracing the kata, diverging from the kata and discarding the kata. The pursuit of training in a classical Japanese endeavour almost always follows this educational process. This unique approach to learning has existed for centuries in Japan and has been instrumental in the survival of many older Japanese knowledge traditions. These include such diverse pursuits as martial arts, flower arranging, puppetry, theatre, poetry, painting, sculpture and weaving. As successful as shu-ha-ri has been into the modern era, new approaches to teaching and learning are altering this traditional Japanese method of knowledge transmission. Whether traditional Japanese arts and endeavours are successfully passed to the next generation of practitioners is up to the sensei (teachers) of today and their wisdom in confronting the inherent strengths and pitfalls of shu-ha-ri. In this essay I will focus on shu-ha-ri and its unique application in the honourable martial discipline of Yoshin-ryu jujutsu. Shoden: The beginning level of training Shu (Embracing the kata) The kata or form is the educational core of all traditional Japanese knowledge schools. It is the most visible representation of a schoolís knowledge packaged into one seemingly simple set of movements or concepts. Because the kata is so accessible it is often mistaken to be the most important aspect of determining a students ability or progress. In fact, properly taught, the kata does contain within it the ura or hidden level of information, but this information lies beneath the surface or omote of simple observation. Without first devoting oneself entirely to the mastery of the omote of the kata, the student is destined to remain forever a beginner, never able to progress towards the true depth of knowledge that rests hidden in the ura before him. To experience shu and embrace the kata, the student must first resign himself and his ego to a seemingly random series of repetitious exercises. Often these beginning or shoden level kata are by design intended to challenge the students concentration levels and devotion to learning. In some of the more rigorous traditions, kata are intended to create physical discomfort in addition to this exercise. Overcoming physical discomfort in this type of kata is just the first level of training the student to mentally focus exclusively on one task. As the student progresses through the various kata, different aspects of stress and distraction are encountered. As these challenges grow more intense the studentís mind learns to process information and stress in a much more efficient manner. In time different neuro-muscular processes become intuitively ingrained in such a way that they are no longer consciously realized by the student. Once this level of kata is absorbed and executed satisfactorily, the student has reached the first level of his or her training. Other more advanced kata will be presented throughout training which present greater and more diverse challenges, but the mental methodology for learning is now in place. The most basic reason for kata training has been achieved. The pitfalls of teaching at the shoden level At this level it is possible for kata to teach all by themselves. They are after all physical repetitions that challenge and instruct in an almost totally private experience. Although it might seem an exaggeration, anyone who knows the basic movements of a kata can take a student to this first level of training. It is even possible for some students to reach this level of training entirely by learning from a device like a book. However, this hands-off approach to learning by the sensei places the student in a perilous situation, especially in the teaching of paired kata. The most common downfall here is a senseiís lack of diligent attention to physical form and proper timing. Simply stated, many low-level instructors teaching ability suffers due to their own mediocre instruction. Due to this they now instil poor habits into their students that must be unlearned at a later time. This is not only potentially dangerous, but can be quite frustrating to the student. This teaching flaw has resulted in many excellent prospective students becoming disenfranchised from their training experience and discontinuing their pursuit. Diligent instruction even at the most basic level of kata training is absolutely mandatory. Basics are at the core of any pursuits proper execution and should never be undervalued. Chuden (The intermediate level of training) “Shu” at the chuden level At the chuden level kata study includes a new element. This element is the application or bunkai. The deeper reason for the kata and its construction is now presented to the student. The scenario in which the kata exists is also studied and evaluated. This study and evaluation is however strictly limited to the pure execution of the kata without variation. Only through this strict study can the kata accurately demonstrate its relevance to the student at a level he can comprehend. During this process the sensei helps the student begin to grasp the existence of the ura, those aspects that lie hidden beneath the surface of the physical form. For some students this realization is a revelation while to others it has been obvious for some time. Either way, the sensei must now accurately present basic concepts on a more abstract level than before. This paves the way for the second aspect of shu-ha-ri. Ha (diverging from the kata) In the traditional Japanese concept of shu-ha-ri, ha is the first hint of creative expression allowed the student. It is when the henka waza or variation is first experienced. It has been called the “divergent form existing within the form” or the “orthodox variation that co-exists within the confines of the strictly defined greater kata.” This is when the student is encouraged to consider any response to a failure within the pure kata. Extremely attentive instruction is required by the sensei at this juncture because too much deviation will lead to sloppiness or bastardization of technique, while too much restraint can cripple any underlying intuitive talent. Encouraging intuitive creative talent is the purpose here but this creative experience must be diligently tempered by the confines of the greater kata. The kata must remain recognisable as the kata. If the kata diverges too far from the norm, it is no longer related to the original kata and becomes an altogether different expression of technique. It is imperative that such a deviation be avoided at this level of learning. Ha, at the chuden level Once the student discovers the boundaries of his training within the greater kata he will find the possibilities of learning almost endless. Progress comes now in leaps of ability not experienced in the past. Most excellent students first demonstrate their real potential during this stage of their study. The concepts and forms of the ryu integrate in a manner that intellectually stimulates the studentís mind. He now more fully appreciates the kata and recognises the technical wisdom that exists within it. Consequently, many sensei find this time the most rewarding in a studentís progress. The fruits of a senseiís labour manifest themselves powerfully during this period. The pitfalls of teaching at the chuden level. Strict adherence to the core concepts of the particular tradition must be adhered to at this time. To deviate from the core concepts that define the ryu will allow the student to proceed in a direction not intended by the Ryuso (founder). The boundaries of the kata must be adhered to for the ryu to maintain its identity and focus. Stepping beyond the confines of the kata at this point can be disastrous and a studentís ultimate potential compromised. Sensei often fall into the trap of becoming too unstructured in their teaching at this level of training. They misread the studentís progress and take him too far beyond his level of comprehension. The studentís mind and technique must be constantly challenged during this intermediate stage of learning, but occasionally an overzealous student will attempt to move too far too fast. This tendency must be avoided or it will compromise further progress and learning. Joden: The advanced level of training Ri (discarding the kata) Some practitioners of modern martial traditions dismiss kata and shu-ha-ri as being too confining or old fashioned. In truth, this position is flawed because they misinterpret the purpose of kata. Like so many armchair experts, they have not been properly trained beyond the shoden level in kata and are commenting on a subject about which they simply are unqualified and therefore unable to comprehend. Like most observers outside the experience of deep study, they see the kata as the art itself instead of a sophisticated teaching tool that is only a surface reflection of an arts core concepts. The kata, in their flawed interpretation “is” the art. This is like the flaw of assuming a dictionary to be a complete representation of language. Unfortunately, numerous older martial traditions in Japan unintentionally reinforce this misinterpretation by overemphasising the kata. Often with these schools significant core elements and knowledge have been lost to antiquity so that all that remains is the omote or outer shell of the kata. With nothing left but the kata to embrace, these schools often reinterpret their mokuroku (technical syllabus), making the kata the primary driving force of the ryu. When this happens the ryu inevitably degenerates into a simplistic dance where the ura and applications of the kata become of secondary focus. These traditions are effectively dead. They are like skeletons attempting to represent a total person. “Ri” What is it? “Ri” is difficult to explain as it is not so much taught as it is arrived at. It is a state of execution that simply occurs after shu and ha have been internalised. It is the absorption of the kata to such an advanced level that the outer shell of the kata ceases to exist. Only the underlying truth of the kata remains. It is form without being conscious of form. It is intuitive expression of technique that is as efficient as the prearranged form but utterly spontaneous. Technique unbridled by the restriction of conscious thought processes result in an application of waza that is truly a moving meditation. For one who has achieved ri, observation becomes its own expression of reality. The mind is now free to operate on a distinctly higher level than previously possible. To the casual observer it appears that the exponent has become almost psychic, able to recognise an occurrence or threat before it actually exists. In truth the observer is just fooled by his own mindís mental inertia. With ri, the lag time between observation and cognitive response is reduced to almost imperceptible levels. It is “ki”. It is “mushin”. It is “ju”. It is all these things in combination. It is the manifestation of the highest level of martial ability. It is what we refer to in the Takamura ryuha as “wa”. The level of technical execution associated with ri is realistically beyond the ability of many practitioners. Most people are simply incapable of reaching this, the most advanced level of expression of a ryuís potential. Frequently however, practitioners who never reach this level of technical execution make excellent sensei, able to take a student to the edge of mastery even though they themselves are incapable of making the jump to the intuitive execution that is ri. Some observers try to dismiss this recognition of limitation as elitist. I find this thinking odd. I would like to remind these observers that not all human beings are innately capable of mastery in all pursuits. As individuals we are endowed with certain talents and deficiencies. It is these individual talents and deficiencies that make us humans the diverse and unique species we are. To try to deny this truth is to deny what makes up our individuality. With this in mind it is imperative to remember that the humble individual realises that mastery in one pursuit does not guarantee even average talent in another. Likewise, technical expertise does not necessarily guarantee teaching expertise. Pitfalls of teaching at and beyond the joden level Once a student has reached the level of realising ri on a regular basis he has essentially achieved all the technical ability a sensei can strictly teach him. The process of instruction and teaching must now evolve. The relationship between teacher and student must be allowed by the sensei to evolve as well. At this point the student is charged by the traditions of his ryu and the vows of his keppan (blood oath) to maintain control of his ego and recognise that without the sensei and the ryu he would never have achieved his ultimate potential as a student. He must acknowledge that he owes all that he has learned to his senseiís devotion to teaching and his senseiís sensei. His behaviour must reflect that he is forever in debt to the ryu and that he is compelled to be humbled in his teacherís presence. Likewise, the sensei must now allow autonomy and self-expression by the student in a way never previously permitted. More a leader and pointer of the way, the sensei should proudly stand beside his student with a glad heart. He is likewise humbly compelled and called by his responsibility to the ryu to continue to live up to the principles and standards he impressed upon his student. His task of teaching is over. He is now a grandfather instead of a father. Unfortunately, it is at this time–the time of a sensei’s highest calling to the ryu–that many fail. Instead of demonstrating confidence in themselves and pride in their studentsí accomplishments they fall prey to vanity and insecurities of the spirit. The failing of a sensei now is usually associated with a perceived end of respect from the student, an end of respect that doesnít actually exist. Frequently this problem manifests itself when the sensei attempts to reintroduce a strict student-teacher relationship that prevents the student from realising his mature position of authority within the ryu. At this time some sensei perceive deviation from their own path as a students rejection of their teachings. In truth, some of a senseiís teachings must be denied for a student to reach the highest levels of self-expression within the ryu. Some sensei are also unwilling to recognise that a deviation from their own teaching at this level is actually a manifestation of the studentís individuality and mature confidence. This confidence–it must be remembered– was imparted by the senseiís own teachings as part of the bargain between student and teacher. The sensei must remember his duty and charge as simply a member within the ryu. He must humble his heart and reacquaint himself with his own past as a student. This he must do to remain an effective leader of “the way.” Conclusion: White becomes black, becomes white again. It is the calling of every member of the school to acknowledge his charge and regularly peer into the kamidana (household altar) mirror, the mirror that reflects undistorted truth. And to humbly ask the kami to assist him in viewing his own heart and motivations with a critical eye, to scrutinise that small voice that is the harbinger of vanity and rationalisation. Only through the expression of truth can the process of shu-ha-ri successfully embrace student and teacher in the charge of passing the knowledge and wisdom of our schoolís ancestors forward responsibly. Yukiyoshi Takamura, 1986. Having undergone special training in Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu as a boy, Yukiyoshi Takamura left Japan while a teenager and eventually settled in San Jose, California, USA. He operated a dojo in California in the 1960s and 70s choosing to provide rigorous training to a small group of dedicated students. His art, now called Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu, embodies the philosophy and spirit of an earlier era of Japan adapted to a Western setting. Takamura’s deep insights into the essence of martial arts stimulates modern budo practitioners around the globe.
I see value in both teaching/learning styles, so it sounds chauvinistic to completely denounce either method. Also, the finer points may truly be indescribable; therefore, their successful transmission would necessarily depend on the dedicated perception of the student. The quote from Ellis Amdur was interesting and reminded of a passage from John Ruskin's Sesame and Lillies. It shows that it's a phenomenon not restricted to Asian cultures or martial arts.
Yes it does. Well it does if it's not what you want. The reasons you listed are not, imo, the right reasons for staying in an art. You should be training because you enjoy it and because it fits what you want to do. If you are just staying there because you have sunk some time and money into it then you won't enjoy what you are doing and it will become a chore.
Fallacy -> Appeal to Common Practice And I didn't say it yielded no results I said it is an objectively worse method of teaching. Because it is objectively worse. I decry the Pontiac Fiero too. Existed in, yes, but I don't think prevalent is the right word. In asiatic cultures there is as much a tradition of direct explanation if not, I would contend, more. I'm sure all of the Japanese surgeons and engineers learn by having to "steal the technique" instead of by directly being taught There are things which need to be observed in any technical practice but people will still correct and explain what, why, and how they are doing things. Yes but even with those you still correct people and go "not like this, like this." If you don't and expect them to just "steal the technique" instead that's just being a bad/incompetent/lazy instructor. No I'm not underrating personal exploration I'm devaluing a system which allows for an objectively worse teaching method. Again... we train martial arts under instructors because there is no need to reinvent the wheel. No one should have to spend a bunch of time trying to figure something out for themselves which could be explained. Do I need to post videos of self taught martial artists so you can see the results of the "steal the technique" method? :evil: TL;DR Explaining things is a better way to teach people than not explaining things and expecting them to figure it out for themselves.
"I'm sure all of the Japanese surgeons and engineers learn by having to "steal the technique" instead of by directly being taught There are things which need to be observed in any technical practice but people will still correct and explain what, why, and how they are doing things." This is not what we are talking about or saying. You are taking it out of context.
For some the school itself is more important, this means that certain mechanisms are in place. Plus of course there is a certain amount of cultural baggage that comes with some systems. http://shutokukan.org/join_the_ryu.html
The school is a group of people, most notably students. They are your end product which forms the school. If the students are not your priority the school is not your priority. Case in point: If your priority is building proficient students, teach well. If you want to teach well explain things
Not in all cases. The "school" in some cases can be just one person, as long as he passes on what he knows to one more person who he thinks is worth the effort then all is good. The school is the oral, written and physical teachings and so the integrity of these things must be maintained. That might mean ensuring that not every Joe bloggs can pick things up at a drop of a hat. There's also the aspect of personal development and understanding, sometimes things have to be processed internally and no amount of spoon feeding will do. Plus there's the whole feudal and Confucian thing going on.
We are talking about which is a more effective teaching method for building proficiency. One is superior to the other in that regard. The other factors are of no consequence, although I certainly agree with the personal development side of things. IMO that is where Abrahamic traditions fall short of certain Asiatic religious or philosophical pursuits.
No we aren't. We are discussing why certain things happen in the Bujinkan, one of those reasons is the traditional methodology that appears to run in the background, despite BBT essentially being a modern art. This is why gtlauu pointed out the problems with using modern contexts such as surgeons and engineers in this discussion.
Traditionally poor students got killed off, nowadays poor students get a 15th dan. Really the best approach is to teach fundamentals well, and to provide an environment for self directed learning via self experience. This also seems to be the old approach the bjkn used, - re jinenkan interview.
