What makes your TMA "Traditional"

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Matt_Bernius, Oct 22, 2004.

  1. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I think there some people class traditional martial arts as arts that are useless for realistic self-defense situations due to focusing on pointless or unrealistic training. I totally disagree with that. While many aspects may seem useless at face value, when you look into the actual purpose of the technique(s) and adapt them or [elements of them] to current times, they can be deadly.

    As already mentioned, MT, Boxing, Wrestling, Judo and Jujitsu are all old martial arts, but maybe there not considered traditional by many as they are often the selected arts in mixed martial arts. Yet the techniques used have always been there, even before MMA was conceived.

    I personally think uniforms, formalities of respect, philosophy, history, culture etc all apply to an art being traditional. I think an art needs a few of these elements to be classed as traditional, but then that would include practically most martial arts.

    As for a system being martial. I see 'martial' as the actual fighting and 'art' are all the other stuff that surrounds it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2004
  2. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Good post, Homer.

    I really think that every art that's been around for a while whose customs and rituals haven't changed radically are traditional. And to set the record straight, from my mouth to god's ears, and for anyone who wasn't sure: MMA stands for Mixed Martial Arts, not Modern Martial arts. That said, I think every art that's kept its rituals and customs for at least two generations old is traditional.
     
  3. samuri-man

    samuri-man New Member

    in responce to your origanal question a troditional ma is one that been alound since it's founding day.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I went to the Renaissance Martial Arts Fair over the weekend (Thanks Matt) and we were gifted with a class from a very good Hung Gar Gung Fu Sifu who is very "traditional". His sifu gave him this definition of "Traditonal Martial Art":

    1. You respect the instructor
    2. You stick with the art for a long time

    This goes along with the way I look at some things as well: the techniques are not as important as following bthe basic philosphy and concepts of the art. All styles do basicly bthe same thing (end goal) but through different roads... you can change the car you drive (techniques) but nit as much as the way you drive.
     
  5. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    I think this is getting some where. But... is "self preservation" correct? Does that discount or limit it to defensive arts as opposed to those that were designed for more aggressive combat (actively attacking someone else).

    Also most systems was geared for specific scenarios and environments. That could be included as part of the philosophy, but I think that buries that notion. So I would append the quote with "for specific scenarios."

    Perhaps. perhaps not. There are two basic categories of punching: from the corner (boxing) and from the center (commonly associated with Wing Chun). Each has different dynamics.

    But if we go beyond that, someone suggested that if you were to teach "boxing" hands as part of a Karate cirriculum, you would have something that would no longer be Karate. Is that the case? This infers that there is something deeper going on than simly a shift in teaching methodology.

    What does everything think about this?

    Whose responsibility is it to adapt them? Teacher? Student?

    Just being exact, Judo is not an old art. It's a little more than a century old. When compared to the others listed (assuming that you mean traditional JJ and not BJJ), that's a blink of an eye.

    Agreed. MMA definitely has its own uniform style, philosophy, history and traditions, and culture. So that stuff as a designator doesn't work.

    - Matt

    ps. Thomas, thanks for the plug!
     
  6. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    It's the student's responsibility to be creative in stringing together techniques and even changing them to suit their needs. Once a person becomes a teacher, it is no longer their responsibility to adapt techniques to suit their needs, since they will now be in the business of translating the basics back to their own students.

    "Agreed. MMA definitely has its own uniform style, philosophy, history and traditions, and culture. So that stuff as a designator doesn't work."

    Why not? MMA isn't its own style: It's a mix of mostly traditional arts, though from what I can tell, the traditional aspects of the component arts are pretty much gone.
     
  7. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Good points, but if a system is supposed to be teaching self defense, should it be a student's responsibility to figure out how to make the techniques work?

    And if the new teacher adapts techniques to teach new students is it still the same art?

    My point was that you can't use those factors to differentiate traditional from modern, as all arts and systems have thier own unique cultures (even having no uniform is in fact having a uniform).

    Is MMA not a style? If it isn't then what is it? A category of styles? What are the traditional aspects that are "gone" as you put it?

    - Matt
     
  8. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    I said MMA isn't its own style because it's a compilation of more than one style. For example, the ever-popular Muay Thai/BJJ combination, or Muay Thai/Judo or kung fu/Pankration (that'd be wierd) or Aikijujitsu/TKD. These are all examples of MMA because they are Mixed Martial Arts.

    People who practice multiple martial arts in a mixed martial arts setting don't seem to still practice the customs associated with the component styles, and for a justifiable reason: It can be a little confusing which traditions to observe when you have more than one set of them to pick from. Also, I've heard it said many times that MMA is all about practical hardcore combat and that respect is gained and given through proving oneself in the ring. That said, while it does have its own code (modified, no doubt, according to the gym) of conduct, I would venture to assume that the rituals and customs of the parent arts are left behind. I really can't get more specific on MMA because it's not my area of expertise, and everything I've said concerning it is inference drawn from the posts I've read.
     
  9. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    So they develop their own custom practices (culture), they choose a grouping of techniques based on a given philosophy (structure). Why shouldn't they be considered styles? Systems? Or something new?

    I think your inferrences are spot on, btw. Good reading and thinking skills.

    But now we've stepped on... check that, jumped on to the slippery slope. Some "traditional MA" techniques, some evolved practices, new cultural back drop, different (though perhaps not new) philosophies. Are we still talking traditional? Or where did we cross the line?

    - Matt
     
  10. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Maybe I should rephrase: MMA isn't its own style, however it is comprised of two or more styles. But then again, style isn't necessarily limited to techniques...or is it? Am I in over my head yet? :confused:

    :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

    Ok, now that that's cleared up, I still think 'traditional' is relative to the practitioners. Have the teachings of the master been carried on by the students, or have they been changed?

    Frankly, I don't think there's a line to cross at all. Does 'modern' imply 'new and better?' Consider music: Handel's Messiah is a very old Classical piece of music by todays standards, and Rickie Martin's Livin' La Vida Loca is modern. But what about when Messiah was written? It was pretty much pop music at that time. All music was once new music, and all arts were once new. Therefore, I can't really say that 'Modern' exists at all past the time a thing is concieved.

    That does make sense, doesn't it?
     
  11. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    I think its pretty well established that even the arts we term "traditional" are actually mixed as part of a process that has continued since their begginings. Starting at a local level and progressing through regional, national and finally international levels. Like language, the only way it can remain unchanged is for it to stop being actively used.

    Is time the limiting factor? At what point will MMA culture and tradition congeal and relegate it to "traditional" status?
     
  12. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    I am compelled to agree, and good point with the language reference.

    By the way, at what point will MMA culture and tradition congeal and relegate what to "traditional" status?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2004
  13. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    So time is the limiting factor? Or is it? Would most people consider TKD a traditional art? If so then we're looking at an art thats only a little over 50 years old. And there are other Korean arts that are even younger, but still considered TMA.

    If so does that mean around 2040, MMA will be considered TMA?

    - Matt
     
  14. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    By 2040? Maybe. I think it's better to count time in generations than in years, since things will only progress or regress when people make them do so. TKD could be considered traditional, given its roots in Shotokan, which is undoubtably traditional. The mixing of martial arts is traditional already: I can't quite seems to wrap my brain around the possibilty of people not being able to crosstrain, even in the old days. In the West, it was common for nobles and soldiers to be good at swordplay, wrestling, horsemanship, etc. It should stand to reason that Oriental nobles and soldiers would have a similar skillset. If that's true, MMA existed at least as far back as the 14th century!
     
  15. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    I recalled back in the day....70's 80's when you would see a dojo offering to teach multilpe styles of martial arts under it's roof. Usually it would be a mixture of karate, kung-fu, aikido, judo, and kobudo. Now when the term mixed martial arts came along, you only hear of it consisting of Muy Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu.
     
  16. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Yeah. Well, MT and BJJ do seem to be very versatile arts, so I can understand their appeal.
     
  17. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Mixed Martial Arts.

    Though, lacking the advertising capabilities we have now, the same pattern has continued for centuries: ________ is the new uber system followed by a rush to the new movement and system x gradually becomes the status quo. Then the inevitable next trend comes along to remove it from the throne.

    The elusive question is how long before this occurs, for some systems it took centuries, others have seen the transformation from "new" to "traditional" in decades. What factors contributed to this?

    Right now, we have some clear delineation between TMA and MMA (contrived, though it may be). With time the line will blur, concepts from one cross to the other, eventually you won't know where one begins and the other ends.
     
  18. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Sometimes it takes a really influential person to define the transition point. Like the Gracies for BJJ, or Choi for TKD. Nobody would have listened much if Gen. Choi was a just a shoemaker who could kick high.
     
  19. Stingrae789

    Stingrae789 Valued Member

    I havent read the 3 pages of posts lol:
    How is my martial art not mixed, we do choy li fut, hung gar, wing chun, dragon(havent goten onto that yet). Would someone please explain the difference between a modern and traditional MA, oh and internal and external :D. I mean a punch is still a punch 200 years ago and a kick is still a kick, and yes an arm/wrist/lock/bar is the same. In other words why dont we all just get along, if it worked 200 years ago it must work now (its npotas if we have more limbs or anything)
    *please note i am using 200 years as a general gap :D, it could be more, it could be less*
     
  20. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Well, you are doing a mixed martial art. Also, you should really read the rest of the thread because we've defined the difference between traditional and modern. Also, what worked a while ago might not work today, because defensive counters may have been developed to counter that move. And if you think a punch is a punch is a punch, you've apparently not seen any boxing matches. There are at least 4 basic boxing punches. Same with kicks: Sure, every TKD kick is based off of one of four kicks, but even beginners can do at least six or seven different kicks. And we are getting along quite nicely, too!
     

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