What makes jujitsu effective

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Katsu, Sep 29, 2012.

  1. Katsu

    Katsu Banned Banned

    yeah you could go caveman i don't get your point
     
  2. Katsu

    Katsu Banned Banned

    To be slightly disrespectful -you do ninjutsu.

    that's my point just because he does ninjutsu does not mean what he does is not effective obviously it has to be with a good organisation genbukan/bujinkan you can look at the meat and potatoes of it and some of the fighting skills look damn right nasty.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Hey Katsu check your PMs :)
     
  4. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    No bro. Ninjutsu is for lazy people. It is so deadly that we do not need to go through all that nonsense a catch wrestler does. I can't even believe you would consider them equally matched, let alone the wrestler standing a chance.

    Deadly.
     
  5. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water


    sorry i'm late but i had to work. anyway back on topic.

    1.) no sir i'm sorry this is simply not the case. how can you honestly claim that disallowing biting, and eye gouging puts anything in the grapplers favor? especailly seing as those are two techniques done from a grapplers range. if anything that would serve to hinder bad grapplers. the padded floor being a disadvandge for grapplers makes no since either. from standing in octagons and hearing reports the floor was ruffly the slightly softer then your standard Jiujitsu mats. since we train are muay thai on those same mats, i don't see how strikers couldn't generate enough power. seems like an excuse by those who did poorly.

    Nobody even went for good single or double legs or any other strong wrestling takedowns that require the knees on the mat. most went for safe clinch takedown or a throw, If they had fought on wood floor- we'd probably have tons of people arguing that it was bad because the floor was slippery, and grapplers complaining that they weren't given a fair advantage due to that. Or somebody would have gotten seriously hurt or killed from being slammed on it, and now the UFC is never made. Either way- almost every dojo has padded floors anyway so Its not as if this was something knew.

    as i mentioned before the idea that the fighters who fought in it were out of shape past there prime former champs is wrong too. I just remembered there was also some nigerian fellow who was the muay thai champ of some division as well. I want to say he fought in 2 or 3 but i can't remember. must rewatch.

    regardless neither of those are enough proof for your claims. and even if UFC 1 was fixed for royce to win. what do you say of then of the fact that he went on to win two more as well against much more diverse competition or of the fact that they recruited other people who also knew submissions yet he still won? still fixed? no. royce one because few knew groundfighting and even fewer knew it from a BJJ perspective. Royce wasn't even the strongest gracie, as the rest of the family is quick to tell you.
    if rickson had entered it would have been much brutaler. So as i said before you provided nothing but rumors and hearsay, and 2 very poor reasons to count something as being of foul practice. biting and eye gouging are two of the biggest fool tactics professed as such game changing skills even to this day.


    now my point may be getting muddled because this is text and not my own verbal discussion but what I believe early UFC proved was
    1. Martial arts up and till then and shortly after was filled with many people who got away with bogess claims to their students about how this works in a fight and how that works in a fight. what UFC both past and present did/does was precent that harsh stab of reality to what fights look like. are you training by holding out the arms for you're punches- well this is how a real punch looks like. Notice how quick the first fights were- just like street fights are. the average UFC fight in 1-6 was 2 mins, now its much more stiffer competition due to people learning and evolving from those days, as well as more rules and prep time for matches.
    2. ( and this is how i feel about martial arts in general) A fight is a fight. they all generally look the same. MMA shows that. its a fight, and early UFC /pride replicates that to a letter being that many of them fought about as well as most bar room brawlers.

      So there is no talk about this guys a super dangerous street fighter because he's from this neighborhood and did blah blah blah - NO, this is a fight, and thats all it is. a fight. punching, kicking, slaps, grabs, holds, takedowns, stomps. its all just a fight. all styles are is just different approaches to different (or same) situations. It gets rid of this mysticism or taboo about martial artists, and how lethal many were. regardless of you're location unarmed combat will look ruffly the same. either very well done or very poor. I'm trying to say this as simply as i can. I'm a big fan of myamoto musashis five rings as well as the TJKD and these are two books that seem to express what i'm getting at better then i might be doing.

    which is why I don't agree with a lot of RBSD. most fights can be avoided, and I understand the idea of teaching pre fight tactics and post fight tactics, like talking it out, avoiding areas that have large crime rates, being able to tell if somones preparing to attack. those are all very important skills. But once the fist starts flying ( assuming their are only fists involved)its just an MMA fight without the octagon. No need to change the art. Just go and end it by the means necessary for that situation.

    This is why I personal hold full contact fighting and competition as the perfect pressure testing environment. It may have rules but as its been said on Map before- everything and every place has rules. you don't walk into you're dojo expecting someone to actually gouge you're eye or pull a real gun do you? in full contact comp you've been hit, as hard or harder then any punk on the street. So anything someone can throw at you with there body is nothing new. I've seen too many people go on about their tough training then get hit and forget what the name of their system even was.

    Maybe not you- but those over paranoid wackos who go on about their only being 1-3 areas of an attack in a fight you should go for- or don't do proper condition in favor of simulation training i just find laughable. to defend yourself in a "street fight" learn to "fight" then doing it on "the "street" won't be hard.

    I realize their are other areas about self defense than what I'm speaking of, but i'm speaking with only regards to this particular area.
     
  6. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    also, a quick article a read once online about a lot ( most certainly not all) RBSD programs.

    Many people who now saw that there were some glaring weaknesses in the usefulness of (so-called) traditionally trained martial arts decided to practice and design systems that were made for the realities of the street confrontation or assault. Gone were the kata, the gis and the formality. Gone were the ancient Chinese masters. In their place were black t-shirts and BDUs. Paramilitary terminology replaced Asian speech. Scenario drills replaced kata and the Ancient Masters were replaced by ex-Navy SEALs and former bouncers. Reality Based Self-Defense (RBSD) was born.

    The problem is, many of these new RBSD systems and practitioners missed the real lesson of UFC 1-4. They kept the training methodology that had failed. Gone are the kata, but the reliance on compliant drills with a pre-determined loser remains. BDUs have replaced the gi, but reliance on so-called deadly or killer techniques remains. Though some learned the lesson of the importance of conditioning, many still believe that it is not necessary for “real fighting.”
     
  7. Katsu

    Katsu Banned Banned

    i have asked for this thread to be closed because instead of it being about what makes jujitsu effective in a real world environment it's turning into - if your not doing bjj then what your learning aint good thats not what i intended there is alot of this on other forums all over internet and it's getting boring.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2012
  8. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Sorry for the derailment. But I haven't seen a "bjj is king" attitude in this thread tbh

    What makes something effective is how it's trained. Depends on your teacher and the application.
    It's really the same thig as what makes bjj effective in the cage - training with pressure, good mechanics and a good skill level.
     
  9. Katsu

    Katsu Banned Banned

    there you go again cage is not the real world is it now
     
  10. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I never said it was.
    I'm only talking from my own experience which happens to be bjj, I'm sorry if that upsets you.

    Most the things I've been involved with have been a lot of drilling in certain skills, testing skills and then adjusting them and retesting. It's basic skill learning followed by pressure testing. Think about how up learnt sport in school.
     
  11. Katsu

    Katsu Banned Banned

    nice chatting goodbye
     
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    No, it's not, but the principles Zaad mentioned still apply.
    We have a very talented senior Ju Jitsu instructor on this forum who posts under the internet name Smurf. Now I have not had the opportunity to see his classes although I have had an hour's seminar under his instruction at a MAP meet, so I can't speak for what in his normal training makes his Ju Jitsu effective. What I can speak for is that he has come to me for full contact pressure testing of his ability to avoid, defuse and survive street based single and multi person aggressive and violent situations. He's done so very well and furthermore has recommended them to his students and a number of them have come to me for the same testing.

    Why do I mention this? Well from my perspective it is how he has shown his training is effective for self defence. Why is it effective? Well there could be a number of reasons, but I don't doubt that regular testing of ability to determine what works/doesn't work and what people can/cannot do is a factor.
     
  13. Katsu

    Katsu Banned Banned

    check your pm mail
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    He said it worked in the real world because of the same reasons it works in the cage - i.e. it is drilled effectively
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  15. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    With respect Katsu, your obviously new to this thing. As you have mentioned before. The thing about forums especially is that ideas will shift and arguments arise. Don't take them personally. I'd also recommend being less argumentative to users like Zaad. He has been here for much longer and has tons more info on the subject of jujitsu than you. Even if its Brazilian, or a non traditional environment.

    Why is jujitsu effective? Because the ones that are indeed effective focus on a very full resistance non compliment form of training. You learn how to fight by fighting. This is why jigoro Kano's judo students would beat the jiujitsuka of their time frequently. They only practiced simply moves they could easily apply and fight with, and they fought constantly.

    That's the concept your not fully grasping. A fight is a fight. Whether on the mats or in the cage. So even if you train in a boxing ring or a Mma cage. You are used to having to fight. You will fair much better then someone who doesn't. Your skills don't automatically go inert because a cage or ropes aren't present. There are enough stories of pro fighters fighting in real life or on the streets to prove that to any reasonable person.

    Enough people who have been doing martial arts much longer than you and on this forum disagreeing with you should tell you something.
     
  16. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    Do you happen to have or know of any video examples of effectively sprawling and dropping a knee? Seems kind of counter intuitive to me- I wrestled in high school but got into judo after- and an easy way to give up the single, but I'm willing to keep an open mind if I could see how it works.
     
  17. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    Er sorry... are you being facetious? Apologies if my sarcasm detector is broken today.
     
  18. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    looks like thats the end of katsu.
    i wonder what he said in that PM to JWT was? meh, idiots are idiots.
     
  19. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Yeah.
     
  20. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

    Thought so. But I'm a little new to this forum and didn't want to come off as an ass.
     

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