what makes an internal MA?

IVP Kozak, could you tell me some more about Iron Shirt? it sounds kick-ass. i'd love to be that hard, i wouldn't mind having to spend half my life conditioning.
shotokanwarrior

 

It's about focusing the chi at the point you're going to be hit. This means cultivating chi for a long time (years) and being able to guide it.

I know someone who lies in ironbridge position (two chairs about 1.5m apart, feet on one, head on another, so the body is a bridge between the two chairs) and someone attempts to chop him in half with an axe. (The axe is a proper fireman's axe... 3ft handle, nice sharp head.) They do this sort of thing in Chinatown (London) every year for Chinese New Year.

Other 'tricks' include having spears pushed into neck without penetrating skin, breaking huge vases on the head (I recall some 85 yr old man used to do this), washing the face with smashed glass (obviously without removing nose, the odd iris, etc) and standing on hands with legs spread apart while a colleague takes a plank of wood and hits between legs (apparently a real crowd pleaser, this, and no, the guy didn't speak with a squeaky voice ).

 

Sure. I can't tell you much about it, I only began to read the book, but I found a website about a book I have. I can't get the link to work, so just go to www.google.ca and type in:
iron shirt martial art
the third link would be it. I hope this was helpful.

 

They do it every other day of the year as well, except that its the Triads killing each other.

 

Some Info on Iron Shirt ( in Australia)

Iron Shirt , more accurately Iron Cloth Shirt (Teet Poh Sam) Kung Fu, is a specialised area of Internal Martial Art.
Basically one trains to develop Chi to " insulate" the body from severe external blows, and to speed up the healing of any residual injuries.
There are 2 known teachers in Sydney and they charge something like $60 -75 ph
www.yangmian.com ( Master Yang)
and
http://www.invisiblemaster.com/ ( Sifu Marko Vesse)

Marko was Yang's senior student until they parted on bad terms , and Marko set up his own school.
Yang claims Marko did not complete training, and is therefore limited in skill.
Who knows, I'm not taking sides.
I'm told Yang forbid his students from communicating / fratenising with other students
Go figure.
There are some really fascinating video clips on both websites that show " feats" of strength.
Like crushing rocks by pounding with bare nands, absorbing baseball bat / sledghammer blows , and having a truck roll over one's body.


Does Iron Shirt work .
YES !
What's wrong with it ?
It shortens your life, because everytime one " turns on the power" to abosorb the blows or perform a " stunt", one is draining one's Chi at a phenomenal rate.
And remember Chi is " lifeforce"
In other words , use too much of it, and you have less of it to live on.
Even daily meditation / Chiking may not be able to "recharge" you up sufficiently.

This information can be found on the internet, and is confirmed by INTERNALMartial Artists whoare trained in Traditional Chinese Medicine.
My own Taoist master, who has Iron Shirt ability , confirms this.
In other words, if you should train in Iron Shirt, use it sparingly, might like to keep that in mind when you're showing off as a party trick.

 

Wow thanks soggycat. You know more than I do...
Nice webs.

 

Great post soggycat.

As far as I know, iron shirt is not so much a martial art, as health and conditioning training used to complement your martial art.

 

Re: Some Info on Iron Shirt ( in Australia)

Interesting, except surely you're not draining chi so much as moving it to concentrate one part of your body (then letting it dissipate/circulate away later)? If you expel chi for striking then maybe that's different but in terms of iron shirt (as opposed to iron palm) surely the chi isn't being lost?

Maybe I just don't know enough about chi mechanics... any good books to read?

 

The meaning of internal and external in martial arts, and which styles belong in which, has changed a lot over the centuries.

The terms neijiaquan and waijiaquan come from Huang Zongxi's "Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan" (1669) Huang Zongxi was a respected historian, so this book has been given a lot of attention over the following centuries. However, this book is a political satire criticizing the then new Qing dynasty, which he saw as a foreign conqueror. [Stanley Henning, Academia Encounters the Martial Arts, University of Hawaii Press, 1999]

Huang used the terms to mean domestic and foreign. Wudang styles were neijia or domestic. "Buddhist" styles were waijia or foreign. (Whether or not any buddhist monasteries ACTUALLY had any historical association with martial arts is another subject . . . As an aside, what we now call Taiji was, if it actually existed at this time, pretty much unknown, and not included in "internal".

Prior to this book, the terms had no martial significance. As time passed, everyone wanted to classify their style as one or the other, and the meaning of the two terms changed.

At the present time, the major neijia styles in China are Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji & Tongbeiquan, as well as all styles derived from them. Serious neijia students often practice more than one of these. Xingyi and Bagua are usually taught together. Several lesser-known styles also self-identify as neijia.

The definition of external or waijia, as far as I can tell, is anything that isn't specifically neijia Most family styles and so-called "Shaolin" are usually waijia.

Most of the really tough guys in China belong to the various neijia styles. Xingyi and Bagua were common styles for bodyguards. However, lots of "waijia" people were famous for being great fighters. Hung Gar / Hong Family Quan and Hongquan (different Hong) spring to mind.

My personal opinion is that the separation into internal and external was probably detrimental to Chinese martial arts. Sometimes I suspect that different styles in one region tend to resemble each other more than they resemble the same style in a different region. All the tough old guys I've met have certain things in common. That is to say, the "external" guys move and act more like what I associate with "internal".

As to what these terms mean in contemporary China, the above postings explain fairly well.

Applying these terms to non-Chinese martial arts is (in my humble opinion) a waste of time unless you are registering in an open martial arts tournament.

 

Kudos for your post Jeffrey. Good to see genuine people (amongst others) posting in a land populated by TROLLS.

Gan bei.

 

Thanks. I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to study Chinese in Shandong Province for two years, so I got to see a lot of Chinese martial arts stuff firsthand. There's a lot of confusion even there, especially regarding internal / external & MA history.

The best English-language information on CMA history that I've been able to find is an author called Stanley Henning. Some of his articles are available on the internet, but some require a trip to your local university library and inter-library loans. My favourite is "Academia Encounters the Martial Arts", which I think was published by the University of Hawaii Press.

This is a little but of a digression on this thread, but for information on martial art weapons, I recommend http://www.swordforum.com . They require an actual name, not nicknames, and have a very low tolerance for badly informed posts. They expect new members to thoroughly read through and search existing forums and threads before posting, in order to learn the rules and to avoid duplication of posts. Their moderators are very active. Some of the members are also very knowledgeable about the history of military activity & martial arts in Asia.

 

SHE had some guesses.

 

Ive noticed the main response from this thread is 'breath' goes with 'internal'

 

With regards to the Iron Shirt being bad for you, by draining your 'Qi'. In internal 'Iron Shirt' training, there are 'QI Gong' exercises that replenish the 'Qi', these should really be done after any 'Qi Gong' that depletes ones 'Qi'. Thus, maintaining a balance.

Plus, I've also heard that the hitting actions done for 'Iron Shirt' actually pack 'Qi' in to the outside of the body, though I would think if you’re manifesting expansive 'Qi' to ward off the hits, thus emitting Yang 'Qi', you would in turn be receiving Yin 'Qi' from the hits, this would probably make your body weaker. I’m not at all sure about this Yin/Yang exchange though, but I would think that’s how it works and it being the reason that 'Iron Shirt' is bad for you, if you don’t replenish your 'Qi'.