what makes an internal MA?

shotokanwarrior here....
what exactly is the definition of an Internal Martial Art? is it one that doesn't involve physical exertion or doesn't do conditioning?

 

You'll get different answers from different people

It's a fuzzy line, and one that some people don't think really exists.

Think of it this way, internal ones are more like a form of active meditation, focus on breathing and mental focus.

External ones are more sport like, focus on physical movements.

All contain both though.

 

actually, you are absolutely 100% wrong. internal arts train your body before they train you martially (for fighting). that is all. internal arts like white crane are very stressful on the body, but most internal arts have a martial side.

taiji is a softer style and is easier on the body. white crane involves a lot of physical exertion in its hard aspects, not even necessarily in it's external side...not sure about taiji though.

yeah, internal arts have martial sides...they're just an after thought. in TKD for example, there is a nearby school that teaches you all about jin once you become a red belt...that's fairly common. but if you went to a local taiji school they would teach you all about jin and when you were a red belt teach you how to do TKD...not exactly true, but that's the idea behind it.

sorry. that was a chaotic post.

 

Like I said "You'll get different answers from different people"

 

i was not telling you that YOU were wrong, but shotokan warrior.

he had some guesses about the distinction for internal and external MA...and they were wrong.

all you need to know is that all (most?) MA have both, but the internal side of the art is making your body into a highly functional machine and the external is learning what to do with your machine. internal arts focus on the internal side, external focus on the external. it has nothing to do with exertion, that would be the distinction between hard and soft styles.

that as less chaotic

 

Internal arts have a greater focus on economy of motion, small muscle co-ordination, breathing, posture, and for those less inclined to the idea of chi think of it as kinetic-linking. There's less focus on raw physical power, that is, not to say that it's unnecessary for without it the correct postures and positions are not possible.

As to hard and soft those apply more to technique then the art, (CMA has a pretty mixed bag). Hard meets force with force (e.g. Shotokan Karate) A soft style redirects force or just lets it go. (e.g. Aikido)

Tai Chi Chuan (tajiquan) is known for its soft approach while Hsing-Yi (Xing-Yi) is also an internal art but uses more linear hard style moves.

 

Internal arts can be very physically demanding. If you compare it with doing weights (which it actually is, come to think of it) it's the difference between doing lots of fast reps, or a series of controlled, focused ones.

Internal arts focus on precision of movement - which may or may not mean moving slowly. As bcullen said, it's about focusing kinetic energy in the most economical way and recycling energy that comes from your own or the opponent's movements. A hard style like Karate or Taekwondo will use force on force and expansive movements, but the principles of internal arts is to use as little energy as possible to the greatest effect. That's why most internal arts use spiralling energy of yourself (as in small frame taiji or hsing i) or the opponent (as in aikido).

Breathing methods feature heavily, mainly in order to focus your energy and concentration. Movements in the external arts (like a simple reverse punch or a roundhouse) get more effective the more advanced the person is, but the movements themselves are effective even for the beginner. On the other hand, many movements of the internal arts (fajing or yielding/transforming energy) would be useless for the beginner to use in a real situation. They require a lot more knowledge of your own body mechanics and the opponents movements and psychology (for sticking/following methods) to work.

That is why the internal arts focus on breathing and health-related exercises. They are rooted in qigong and chinese acupuncture (to benefit yourself and also to strike the opponent's weak points) and it's important to have whole-body coordination for the more complicated movements in the forms (which requires health and presence of mind).

I hope nobody takes this the wrong way - external arts can be very complicated and require years of training as well. My point is that while you can be taught a series of external kicks/blocks and have effective weapons in a short time, it takes a lot longer for the weapons of the internal arts to be effective. You can overpower someone with a sloppy roundhouse, but an uncoordinated fajing can end up as just a light slap.

 

I think it's all just a useless distinction. What does it really matter. All I have ever gotten out of it is a prejudice from one side to the other. Every art has aspects of each. The only people who seem to argue one about internal and external are those who feel they have something to gain by making the distinction.

 

Good point, but sometimes you need to make the distinction. When you practice internal forms you need to know the differences because you're consciously trying not to use external methods. The body mechanics is different - of course they cross over but because internal ma is usually so counter-intuitive, it usually helps to make the practice as internal as possible.

 

I'm getting less interested in distinctions the more involved I become in training, it's almost to the point where the less said about it all, for me, the better. Let those who have questions find their answers by effort of practice and not discussion. This is the only place where those answers can truly be found as the question for every person is different for every person, just as the answer is different; it comes from within.

 

I think its a distinction that has been badly misinterperted through Language and Culturual differences.I agree with Terry,in modern times people use it to create a distinction so as to claim higher understanding.(just another way of saying I'm better then you because of blah blah) It provided a link for intellectuals(read people who could and did write about MA in the late 1800s in China)to glorify their commitment to MA(as opposed to being a mindless bodyguard,soilder or crim).They highligthed MAs link to health and spiritual/medative practises,We msytified.

I feel there is and was a lot more to it then this (but like many medative disciplines its selfish and subjective) but it can be found in countless other practises like calligraphy,gardening,tea cemormonies,tennis etc.Second Syd,"Find Peace in Practise"

"You'll get different answers from different people "

You sure will!!!Unfortunatly most of it is just regurgitation from their own Teachers.Some call that tradition

 

Amen sister.

 

It's more an issue for those thinking of training. The external arts generally are more appealing to a younger crowd. While the internal arts hold a greater appeal to those with a few years under their belt (or hanging over it ) The external arts require strength, flexibility, stamina. Things that start to wane with age. The internal arts require perserverance and patience. Things youth often lacks.

If you need to be able to defend yourself right now or within a couple years, I wouldn't recommend an internal art. If you're lacking in patience you might want to think again.

Internal arts are generally viewed with distain in western culture (esp. the U.S.) as they don't reflect the culture. Which, tends to be one of instant gratification (I want it and I want it now).

I currently train in Baguazhang (Pa Kua Chuan). The first year of training was mostly stationary drills on the eight basic palms, stances and walking drills. Year two moved into performing linear palm changes and nine palace stepping. So two years later and I'm almost ready to start the first form.

 

Well said.

I tried to reply to this myself but to be honest it's far easier to buy a good book on the theory of, for instance, tai chi, and read that while considering a hard/external style. Just look on amazon and check out the readers' reviews.

 

God damn the US

 

"If you need to be able to defend yourself right now or within a couple years, I wouldn't recommend an internal art. If you're lacking in patience you might want to think again. "

I tend to disagree,there is no reason why you can't be effective in a short time in many IMA.Like everything this is probally more relative to the school and individual then the style.

"Internal arts are generally viewed with distain in western culture (esp. the U.S.) as they don't reflect the culture. Which, tends to be one of instant gratification (I want it and I want it now)."

Again I disagree, I have found that not only does the west embrace IMA but that they place it on a pedestal and mystify common language phrases into something that they were never meant to be.Everyone seems to know and love the story of the humble old man taking apart the young hothead through use of his superior IMA style
If anything many TMA have lost what many of you would call "IMA
fundamentals" through commericalisation,lack of use,desire to be golbal commodities, cultural displacement and the fact that they probaly don't seem macho enough.

 

IMA change the way you move and think about movement, this is not something that you change overnight. To be effective in combat the movements must be instinctual (commited to muscle memory) which takes even longer.

So which arts do you train in?

 

Internal martial art is a training of your inner body. I know a martial art called "Iron Shirt". It helps you to train the body to become very hard and strong, and you wont be able to put a spear throw your stomach (after maybe 10 years of training). It also teaches you "balance". I have the book, and there is a picture of five guys pushing one person, but he doesn't even move. This is a one martial art I want to be a part of



Colour reset from yellow in the interests of accessibility: Yoda

 

Not that it should matter
BGZ, Yiquan and a soild background in TJQ Yang style.When younger MT.Still love Bjj and Wrestling

You will disagree with me,but I find many boxers and wrestlers move in the format that many good IMA practioners move.There is simply a vast number stlyes of what you would classify as IMA with very different methods of power generation and movement as well as strategy and mindset,all styles change the way you move.
Combat (whatever that is)is a big word,but as I said effectiveness is greatly determined by the school,individual and their associated goals.

 

hardly an 'internal' martial art if you do that much conditioning. (i thought they were into softness rather than hardness?)