Having read a few threads recently about Kook Sool being "watered down", and "not as good as it once was", and that black belts promotions are too easy these days, it got me thinking: What makes a Black Belt? As a Dahn Bo Nim hoping to promote to Kyo Sa Nim this year (P.G.) in November, I would like to know that the Black Belt I receive, if successful, is as valid as one issued to a Kyo Sa Nim 20 years ago or 30 years ago or even just 10 years ago. Therefore I ask the question. What makes a Black Belt? As ever, everyones thoughts are welcome.
Perhaps your question should be more specific to avoid getting into all kinds or rhetoric from all kinds of people. How about: "What makes a Kuk Sool Won Black Belt?" IMO, "What makes a "black belt?" is too broad, and is going to get annoying. That's not to say comments are only welcome from KSW-ers. It's just stick to thoughts on the Kuk Sool Won Black Belt. I see your opening title says: "What makes a Black Belt in KSW"- and that's specific to KSW. But the, "What makes a Black Belt?", opens it up. I think it's an excellent topic, if it can remain.
Well Quozl I think you mean your going to be promoted to Jyo Kyo Nim, If you are going to skip over 1st dan and go right to 2nd dan then good for you. Very good question. My opinion of a black belt is probably different than some of the feedback you will get from others. I am going to keep that to myself for now. What I will comment on though is what brought you to this question. I've been training Kuk Sool for 25+ years and yes there has been lots of changes. These changes IMO were brought about because of the change in the culture of the entire MA community and the need for WKSA to continue to compete in that environment. Some people will claim that it is a way for WKSA to capitalize on thier members, perhaps or maybe it is just a side effect. Irregaurdless of that the changes were more about the business environment than martail arts techniques. In todays Business climate people are more likley to sue you because of an injury then years before so the tendancy to restrict some of the more risky training practices IMO is nessassary. So some would say that because someone can't do an arial cartwheel or front flips, back flips that his martail arts skill's aren't very good, I say BS. Another reason I think people think that the MA is becoming watered down is the fact that there are many more people training in KSW today then years before. The reason for that IMO is the changes that were made attracted a different and broader market to KSW. Thats a good thing isn't it. If you train 50 people with the same instructor you are going to get maybe 5 that excel and the rest are going to be somewhere between above average to poor in talent. If you look at some of the chopsuey MA's out there with little concept of real MA knowledge some of them have 300,400,1000 students. Why do you think that is? Its all about bringing to the public what the masses can and want to participate in. So if an organization such as WKSA or even a particular school wants to survive then we need to adapt. As far as what makes a BB I will leave that up to you to become the best you can be given what you have to work with. Because no matter what anyone thinks its whats in your heart that tell you if your a Black Belt.
Many thanks for you reply Obewan, and my bad. I did in fact mean Jo Kyo Nim not Kyo Sa Nim ... I blame the pain killers having just had a Knee Op! LOL Your final sentence I think really sums it up for me, because as far as I can tell, a black belt is just somebody who never gave up! By that I mean there is so much to learn in KSW that one can spend one's life learning it and find out something new about Ki Cho Hyung and Ki Bon Su many years later. I am still finding things out about Ki Cho Hyung and Ki Bon Su after 4 years. Therefore, can one say one is a black belt in KSW if one is still "learning the basics"? It may be more subtle than 4 years ago. but there are things there still to learn. However, if as a Black Belt one is supposed to help teach the lower belts, if one cannot do the high kicks and the "bouncy stuff" which is part of the sylabus, can one be a BB in KSW? Just a thought. Hi Trailblazer, I really should have said in the text of the question "What makes a Black Belt in KSW?", as well as in the title, as that is exactly what I wanted to ask. Although you are right about none KSW practitioners having a valid say in what makes a BB, I am keen to explore KSW at the moment. Once I have bottomed that, (if ever!) then it may be worth exploring what makes a BB in MA as a whole, but as you say that is an entirely different question. Many thanks. Quozl
1989, 1979 and 1999 are the years you mentioned above. I bet it's not the same black belt they were issuing in those years. Maybe it's similar to the black belt they issued 10 years ago, but I bet they have become much more relaxed than they were in 1979. 1979 was traditional, oriental, martial art's, western, hemisphere heydey.
Your post is food for thought Trailblazer. What is meant by "more relaxed". Does this mean that BBs testing for Jo Kyo Nim, or for that matter any BB above this level, now are not as good as those who tested in 1979 or 1989? What is different now in the skill levels of promoed BBs as compared to then? If the skill level is the same what has been relaxed? Hence, the question, what makes a KSW Black belt?
ROFLMAO - trailblazer, you crack me up! Hi, Quozl. Have you been looking at KJN Joe Foster's website lately? I only ask cuz you repeat the same sentiments found there (cf. "a black belt is just somebody who never gave up" with "a black belt is a white belt that never quit"). Also realize that your questions concerning the "basics" are SUBTLE (you said so yourself). Most beginners will only get the GENERAL idea at first, so don't second guess yourself WRT teaching. It's like anything else you've done in MA, you'll get better with more practice. (note that not all BBs choose to teach, as it does take a certain "type" to embrace this aspect of MA) As for teaching acrobatics, there are plenty of gymnastic coaches that are incapable of actually doing what they expect from their students (Bela Karolyi, for example). So IMO, the ability to demonstrate something has little to do with teaching it. If you can instruct someone to do the acrobatics using progressive steps that ensure safety, there's no need to omit teaching this portion of the curriculum either. And finally to you, Obewan: Clever of you to respond to things I brought up on a different thread, here without reference to that other thread, rather than where it belongs, namely on Staying in the Won?
I think today's KSW black belts are only expected to demonstrate discipline and skill in the area of memory in forms, techniques, kicks and terminology. They have to demonstrate their understanding of expected etiquette. Compete in a tournament, and attend a seminar. Not placing at a tournament, and not having skill in executing the forms, techniques or kicks, won't hold you back. I think the only skill requirement for getting your black belt, within the KSW testing allotted time frame, is memory - mainly of the self defense techniques and forms.
Hi Unknown, thanks for the vote of confidence . If truth be known, I have not been looking at KJN Foster's website (I actually do not know who he is forgive me for saying!). The idea of a BB being a white belt that never gave up or quit is something that is expressed in our school too, so I suppose it is a "mantra" in KSW that has become embeded. That said, is it enough? :dunno: As always everybodies opinions are welcome.
Sorry for posting twice on the bounce but this came in as I was making my other reply. Are you saying, Trailblazer, that to earn a BB that one should also earn a Gold Medal in Tournament? If not, please forgive my misinterpretation, and I only ask for clarification. What is the mark of Skill in the execution of forms and techniques that one is supposed to display? How high does one have to be able to kick to be a BB? Were these the criteria that were around in the 1970's and 80's and earlier? What was different then to now? I am truly interested to know. As ever thank you for you post.
No, I was trying to say the opposite. You definitely do not have to take a gold medal. You don't have to take any medal. You just have to compete. And I don't think it was a requirement in the 70's or 80's. I also don't think the students needed to be compelled to attend a competition or a seminar. I think it was a different breed of students. Students in the 70's and 80's were anxious to compete. They wouldn't have been involved otherwise. At tournament, you can fail miserably, according to the audience's and judges' standards, and still get your black belt. If you show up to tournament drunk, it might be poor etiquette, and then you won't get your black belt. But, just because the audience and judges think your execution is poor, doesn't mean you fail the Black Belt Test. If you choose NOT to compete, you probably won't get your black belt, until you do. I don't think skill or level of execution in forms or techniques matters at all for a KSW black belt. Memory of the forms and 200+ techniques, etiquette, terminology and participation. 1.Not having a somewhat complete memory of forms and techniques 2.Being a "mess" in class 3.Unable to follow instruction with the terminology 4.Not competing in a tournament or attending a seminar These, along with missing tests, seem to be the only things that will hold you back from getting a KSW black belt. Memory, tests and tournament/seminar participation, seem to be the only thing needed for a KSW black belt. Is this generally accepted? Does anyone have a different understanding of today's KSW Black Belt? I don't know how different it was from the 70's or 80's. It seems the practice, and role models may be less extreme today, than it was 20 and 30 years ago. The Grandmaster was more extreme in the 70's and 80's - Now, he's more relaxed, so his demands may have relaxed, in a "trickle down" to his instructors sort of way.
Right! I forgot the natural tendency whilst sitting in front of the computer, to expect everything be "automatically" linked for you. Here's how to find his website: Go to the WKSA website. Navigate to the page displaying the masters. Take note of KJN Foster's location (although, granted, KJN Holmes is erroneously shown to be in Austin, TX ). Next, go to the page listing all the schools and navigate to the correct section, where you will see a link for his website. - OR - CLICK HERE Sorry about the sarcasm, it's just the mood I'm in at the moment. :yeleyes: And trailblazer, you continue to crack me up! But thanks for jogging my memory about other COMMERCIAL requirements that slipped my mind when I posted on that other thread (already mentioned and linked in a previous post - #7). The required attendance/participation in at least one tournament AND at least one seminar, before being "eligible" to get a BB, is yet another example of changes made with the end result being to stuff the WKSA coffers. FWIW.
That's quite alright KJN, Sir, we all have our moments Thanks for the link as well, although I was able to find him via Google anyway.
I didn't mean to be clever, I actually was thinking about posting that information there when I saw the new thread. It seemed appropreate to post it here as I thought Quozl was reffering to our disscussion. And since I posted it here I didn't feel the need to post it again. Sorry. I'm still new at this.
Tournaments and seminars are tradition and a part of the "experience", when getting your "black belt" is "important" to you. If all you wanted was to learn the techniques and forms the best you can, "getting your black belt", isn't as important as the practice. You can stay a practicing brown belt with black stripes for years without going to a tournament or seminar. But, if "you want to have a black belt", experiencing a tournament and seminar is an important part of the tradition. I think tournaments and seminars and testing fees is the business. The grandmaster is following the progression of things, work very hard, make a lot of money, relax. Timing has it that we are in the later, more relaxed stages of the grand master's art. Maybe it will pick up again, and then you'll want to, at least, have your memory. If you don't have your conditioning, which is your responsibility, you may want to get it - for when, (and hopefully, if), things pick up again. Physical aspect of martial arts may not be at it's peak when the grandmaster isn't at his physical peak. If you want to get your black belt in traditional, Korean, martial arts, meditation, In Hyuk Suh is the leader, but for the physical aspects of martial arts, someone who is training hard themselves, is a better motivator, leader and role model. Right now, it's up to you to keep yourself in good condition. If KSW ever has a more physical leader, it may not feel like such an option.
Hey Unknown, Who ****ed in your cornflakes. Look I didn't mean anything personal toward you. Alot of people have the same opinion as you and FWIW I don't totally disagree with some of your statements. I just think that sometimes people read to much into things that have been done in WKSA and thier might be alterior motive that they haven't considered. Where's the love man
i take on board trailblazers comments, but if i use myself as an example for a mo. when i recomend students for their black belt tests, i am constently reminding them that i have a minimum standard to which they must achive (based on each individual) and if they don't, even if they have paid their testing fees, and started the whole testing process, then i will inform them that i will not be sending their final paper work in and put back thier promotion till the next time the GM is over, and if they haven't improved by then it will be put back again. i delayed the promotion of 2 black belts by 6 months, because they weren't ready, because i believe that you must feel like you have earned and deserve a black belt. btw the two students thanked me for doing this after they were promoted. as an instructor it is my job to try and maintain the standards of my students and ensure that they become worthy of a black belts.
Ok, so the thread is titled "What makes a Black Belt in KSW. Lets look a bit more locally. This is aimed primarily at the instructors. What do each of you expect of your students in order for you to put them forward for testing for Black Belt? Is there anything in particular that you look for? Even if you're not an instructor and you're a student, feel free to chip in with what you would want to see from students if you were their instructor. Also, what things does your instructor focus on in your class gradings and how strict are they?
No problem. As you may have noticed (by reading other of my posts), I'm not feeling my usual chipper self. Not a truly sour mood, but enough to make my participation here less positive. Sorry for that. :bow1: And I guess I owe an apology to trailblazer too, as I thought he was being sarcastic also (why I found his posts a bit funny). But the points he makes in his post #15, while true, don't detract from (the pursuit of) The Almighty Dollar business model I was discussing on the other thread. I simply meant to to illustrate how changes were made in the curriculum that direct more money into the association's bank account, regardless if those changes happen to help address other factors that also needed to be dealt with (although I did mention how some of those reasons help to *hide* the underlying monetary reason for some of the changes). And finally, I apologize for dragging this thread off topic, although I expect that Obewan's post #14 sorta acknowledges partial blame as well (sorry again, Obewan - ).
