what is your opinion on christians.

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by 8limbs38112, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    Ok I'm going to knock out each number one at a time starting with #1.
    Otherwise, it would be a long book crammed into one post.

    1. Christianity is based on fear.

    Number one was quite ridiculous. While it seemed to be all gung ho about appealing to logic and rational thinking, it seemed to do the opposite. It just seemed to be a bunch of emotional drivel about Christianity having a fear factor tied to it.

    So what if the bible mentions a punishment for those that don't repent of their sins and choose to obey the God that made them in the first place. By the logic of this article, it is wrong to warn your children that if they break the law, they may suffer in prison. Why? Because it's based on fear. Why? because it's scary.

    You instill the fear of prison in your children because you love them and you want them to grow up to be productive law-abiding citizens. What's wrong with that? That is a healthy fear.

    The writer of this article seems to think that people need to live in a world where reality should be hidden from humanity. Why? Because it's scaryyyyyy!!!!

    In reality, people need to know when something bad might happen to them. Even though, it is scary. It would be nice if we all lived in some kind of wonderland where people don't need to worry about reality, but we don't. People need to be exposed to reality. Even if it is harsh.


    That was number one. Did you want me to give you my take on every number on the list, or were there particular numbers you wanted me to give you my take one.
     
  2. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I personally think the most important issues are addressed in 8, 11, 15 and 18. 19 is also a good one if you believe the bible is inerrant, but not if you think of it as a guide written by fallible men.

    Honestly, I feel that the problem of evil is a better argument against a benevolent and omnipotent god. In essence, if god is omnipotent and chooses to allow evil to exist, he is evil. If he doesn't choose to allow evil, he isn't omnipotent. If he isn't omnipotent, he's not the god of the bible. If he's evil he's not the god of the bible. This effectively makes the god of the bible self-refuting in one or more ways. This also factors in with the idea of infinite punishment for what are often negligible finite crimes (e.g. not believing in god = straight to eternal punishment in some christian interpretations). All in all, this doesn't point towards a benevolent and omnipotent deity.
     
  3. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    (My personal preference would be to debate with you each point until all parties still participating are satisfied to end the debate, then move on to the next one.)

    The manner in which children are "hooked" into belief is by scaring them. I.e., they are told "you must believe this, or you will suffer for eternity".

    The problem is that fear is a very effective teaching tool, especially for children.

    Why is this a problem/what is the point? The point the author is trying to make (I think) is that if there were evidence-based explanations for why a child should believe in Christianity, those would likely be used.


    Frankly I agree with you that this is a weak argument. Fear is a very effective teaching tool. Even if there were other ways to teach/indoctrinate children about religion, it wouldn't be surprising to me that fear was still the #1 choice, because it is very effective.
     
  4. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    #2

    Christianity preys on the innocent for telling children about hell

    Mybe this is a half truth and it might depend on what church the parent decides to go to. Ok, Ill agree to a slight extent. For one thing when you have a 2 year old child you don't want to show him horror movies, or he might have nightmares. You have to be somewhat careful with children.
    And there is a lot of things we don't know about God and the bible. For example, at what age is a person held accountable for their sins. We don't know. Is it 16. 18? All we know is that at some point in time, if you don't repent, if you are a Christian you believe there are repercussion for the decision you made.

    Now, at what age would you teach your child about that? Up to the parent and how mature she thinks the child is.
     
  5. TwirlinMerlin

    TwirlinMerlin Valued Member

    Good point.

    8limbs like I was telling Bostik I found 18 and 19 the most interesting. But I think most of the points are worth a read.
     
  6. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    That's just my take on No. 13.

    I found 5 especially interesting. I work with a lot of Christians over summer and I certainly think there's truth in Bufe's comments. And it seems in most cases that the more devout the person is, the more arrogant and obnoxious they become, or at least with the people I am in contact with. It is quite disturbing and creates quite a tense work environment with an "Us Vs. them" mentality going on. MAybe they just want to keep away from us sinners and heathens....guilty by association and all that. :evil:
     
  7. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Agreed. And in fact think many of the counter-apologetics listed on that page are pointless if you consider the position of someone who genuinely believes in the core doctrines of christianity.
     
  8. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    I'm going to let Merlin tell me which parts of the article to address since he posted it. But I will address your argument.

    For one thing, you say if God allowed evil to exist, then he must be evil. This is a flawed argument because, God did not necessarily create evil. He just simply gave people free choice to make their own decisions. God didn't want us to be robots that can't make our own decisions. If he was going to rid the entire universe of evil, then he would have to take away our free choice. We choose to do evil. I'm no scientist, but I'd guess if we could only be good, then we would only have half a brain. Then maybe we wouldn't be humans with a soul and spirit after all. We would be more like animals that don't know the difference between good and evil. God wanted us to choose to live a righteous life and obey him. Not force us to obey him, and live like robots. So I don't think God is evil, because humans choose to disobey God. I'm just glad made me human and not robot.
     
  9. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    But...but...God made everything right? So if he didn't create evil, where did it come from? Is there another God we haven't been told about?

    So why all the threats of eternal damnation etc?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  10. TwirlinMerlin

    TwirlinMerlin Valued Member

    What are your thoughts on 18 & 19?
     
  11. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    If God is omnipotent, couldn't he have created us such that we don't have these urges to do evil things?
    E.g., the German word schadenfreude describes what seems a pretty common thing in humans: taking pleasure in the suffering/misfortune of others.

    Why would God have built us this way, where we have an inclination to visit violence on the helpless for fun/entertainment (this is especially noticeable in children, who haven't matured enough to restrain these urges in themselves).

    In other words: the way our minds seem to work is at odds with the idea of a benevolent designer.
    Theoretically it should be possible to design intelligence in such a way that results in a LOT less evil in the world than we have today.

    I'm not saying it could be eliminated--free will is free will. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to me that we have all these natural instincts and behaviors that lead us to want to choose evil, if we were designed by a being who would want to minimize evil.
     
  12. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Pausing here for a moment, remember that god in the bible is supposed to be both omnipotent, i.e. all powerful, and omniscient, i.e. all-knowing, past, present and future. If you assume these traits, then god created humans with the full foreknowledge of the decisions that we would all make, which means that at the point of initial creation he already knew that his creation was flawed and would eventually lead to the damnation of countless billions of lives for nothing other than incredulity.

    The traits of the christian god as stated in the bible lead to some horrible conclusions if you follow them all the way through.

    Incidentally, I believe that it is impossible to have more than two of the following in the same universe:

    • Being A having omnipotence
    • Being A having omniscience
    • Any other beings having free will
    This is effectively demonstrated using an argument similar to the one shown in the paragraphs above.


    I can envisage several ways in which god could have made humans so we had our own free will but the inability to do evil. If you replace evil with "fly under our own power" then you can see how it is not a breach of free will to be physically incapable of doing something.

    As mentioned, I don't think physical constraints stop free will from being exercised. It just changes the limitations of how that free will can be applied.
     
  13. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    Yeah, number 19 is difficult to answer. The Old Testament is REEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAL old, and has been orally passed down then translated, then re-translated. I have actually never done any research on the old testament, or any kind of apologetics for the old testament. I may have seen some arguments against it here and there, but I really only researched the evidence and I haven't even read all the books I have with evidence for the New Testament.

    The book I mentioned by Lee Strobel called the Case For Christ actually answers the questions they asked about in number 18. Their exact reasons for why they claim they know the New Testament is reliable escapes me. It was a few years ago when I read it. But.....................................if you like I will get the book. I will look in it and quote the Scholar that answers the questions for number 18, and I will type the reasons they give for why they believe the New Testament scriptures to be reliable. Or you can go out and cop the book yourself, because I am sure it answers more questions you may have about the NT scriptures. Would you like for me to go find the answer for number 18? But I'll have you know, from what I remember they knocked that argument out ........in style.
     
  14. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Go for it. I've yet to see anyone actually demonstrate this point, so it would be interesting to see if you have a new argument for me ;)
     
  15. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    They great thing about God and being all powerful is that people often fail to grasp what all powerful truly is.
     
  16. 8limbs38112

    8limbs38112 Valued Member

    From my experience, fear is not the #1 tool Christians tend to use. Ask us about our religion, and nine times out of ten the guy or gal will start talking a bunch of flowery lovey dovey God died for you type stuff. From what I've seen most Christians seem to think using fear to convert people is ineffective. They think you have to captivate them with God's love with a buch of flowery talk, and tell them how much God loves them. Which might work on some people, but not me. I tend to be more interested in facts then flowery emotional talk, but that's just me.
     
  17. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I remember when I was pre teens, I got really mad at my mom about something or was depressed or whatever, and went outside and thought "I deny god!!!" which I was told at the time was the only unforgivable sin ever. It was a pretty significant moment for a maybe 8-9 year old. I made an eternal afterlife decision based on probably not getting any cookies or something.

    I also don't thin repercussions for your decisions is something unique to christianity in any capacity. Just stick your hand in the ceiling fan for a good example : D
     
  18. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Hooooo buddy, prepare to have your world crushed :love:
     
  19. TwirlinMerlin

    TwirlinMerlin Valued Member

    So the book which serves as the sole blueprint for Christianity has numerous inconsistencies, but that's okay because it's really old and has been translated several times. Doesn't that raise any cause for concern that you're basing your entire belief system on this book?
     
  20. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    The flowery stuff doesn't really impress me either. It's a great story of sacrifice until you realise that Jesus (i.e. part of god) was sacrificed to god (i.e. himself) to settle the debt of humans, a race that he/they created knowing they would be indebted to him/them. All in all, it seems it would have been easier to just forgive the sins of everyone directly rather than going through such an elaborate scheme, especially given how long it actually took to reach the point where humans earned forgiveness.
     

Share This Page