What is your go to strike/defense under pressure?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Saved_in_Blood, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    and it's not even germane to the point i was making.

    talk less, listen more. this is my advice to you.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  2. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    MAP should definitely have a "pppfffttt" button!
     
  3. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    I suspect we are discussing two very different things, because I can assure you that placing a finger just at the top of the sternum and trying to press it inward and hooking the sternum with a finger is not going to work. I don't know what you are trying to hook with that finger, but it won't be the sternum. Perhaps you are not "right above" the sternum, because I've just tried it on myself and it flat out does not work. The skin will not stretch far enough for you to be able to hook the sternum.

    If you hook to the side, you can catch the sternocleidomastoidius muscle, but not the sternum. Check an anatomy book (Grey's is the definitive standard).
     
  4. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    The pushing the bone into the brain comes up whenever someone mentions palm strikes to the nose. I figured I'd go ahead and defuse that one while I was at it.

    I'm not being critical of CH. You are taking this very personally. I am simply discussing what is PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE. I suspect your understanding of the intent behind the attacks may be mistaken, or your teacher's may be mistaken and you're simply repeating what you have been taught. I'm not saying that CH doesn't work. I happen to know that Hapkido is a very effective art because I have a co-worker who has her BB in it and I've seen enough from her to know that Hapkido works.

    I'm simply pointing out that the idea of poking a finger into someone's throat and hooking the sternum is not going to work. It's basic anatomy and physics.
    If you're planning on hooking someone's sternum with that attack you may want to reconsider your tactics. Odds are you'd break your finger in the attempt on the strike even if you could somehow hook the sternum. What you are describing is beyond the limits of what the human body can do. It's not something that you can train yourself to be able to do. It simply won't work. You are free to believe that it can happen, but you are mistaken. Talk to a physician or an anatomy professor some time and explain your theory about hooking the sternum with that strike.


    That makes perfect sense. I have a great deal of flexibility in my wrists from years of guitar and piano. That's where an understanding of the anatomy comes in handy. I can adapt those joint locks on my own because I know the physical structures of the joints. You are doing it by experimentation. Both will obtain good results.

    I had a sigung (sifu's sifu) who insisted on bouncing stretches because that was what he was taught by his sifu, who learned it from his sifu, etc. Bouncing stretches are very bad for you because they stretch by causing small tears in the muscle fibres. There are more effective and safer ways to stretch (Google "proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation" for more info, or PM me and I'll send brief instructions - I have an entire textbook on the subject) than bouncing.

    Most martial arts instructors are not anatomists or physicians. They simply don't have the background in anatomy and physiology that a physician would have, so they have no basis on which to understand if some of these explanations of moves are even possible. I can't tell much about what people say about handguns because I know next to nothing about them, so I have to trust other people for information.

    Odds are that your teacher thinks its possible to hook the sternum. It isn't. I'm not accusing your teacher of trying to mislead you. I'm simply pointing out that the idea of hooking the sternum with that strike defies the current understanding of human anatomy.
     
  5. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    um....so i found this....and just briefly read on wikipedia about ch's "ground survival".

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9E6YXbIrTc"]COMBAT HAPKIDO. GROUND SURVIVAL. DAVID RIVAS - YouTube[/ame]

    i'm here to tell you, against non-compliant partners, that stuff is not going to work.
     
  6. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    There's quite a bit of tripe in that video, ye gods.
     
  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Finger at the position of where the jugular notch is, push in, hook down.

    That's the area anyway. As to whether it's literally that part of the anatomy well you'd know better than I. :D
     
  8. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I've actually tried using tiger mouth a handful of times and have found it to be hit or miss, much like any other technique. If you don't get a clean strike right off the bat (by your opponent either moving his head or tucking his chin, which most trained fighters do to protect their throat) it's not as effective as one might think. I've seen it work very well, and I've seen it not work at all. At the best of times, it stunned the opponent but didn't finish him. At the worst of times, nothing.

    You also have to consider - Will every encounter require you to collapse your opponent's windpipe? Most of your combinations are quite beyond the realm of reasonable force for most of the situations people will find themselves in.

    EDIT: I'd also like to say that at just 3 months into your training, the likelihood of you even pulling off most of these combinations effectively is slim to none. How, after only 3 months of training, do you know these are your "go to" moves?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I get what SiB is talking about.
    Stick your fingers in the suprasternal notch and press down and in.
    It's an OK technique I think. Part of that body of techniques that can be useful but are in no way fight enders or finishers.
    It's like digging your knuckles in behind the jaw. You'll probably get some pain and discomfort and the person being dug will move away from it to some degree, most of the time.
    But like all techniques of that type on some people they really work and on others not at all.
    I've known an instructor that could take a suprasternal notch gouge right up to your second finger joint. I met a guy one time that could take a full on knuckle dig into his jaw hinge. Whereas I feel sick when it's done to me on the right side but barely any effect on the left.
    You can get your fingers pretty far down in the suprasternal notch so I get where "behind the sternum" is coming from.
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    This has been a running theme in his posts.
     
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    This gif is pretty enlightening.

    [​IMG]

    Bisping gets KO'd cold and then Hendo lands much of his body weight in a forearm shot right across the jaw and partially the throat with no space to move back away from the force and yet there wasn't much extra damage to Bisping (aside from a few less brain cells perhaps).
    He was fine I think.

    Again I think all techniques should be appraised on what they will most likely achieve, erring on the side of caution, rather than what they might potentially achieve if their maximum effectiveness.

    SiB. CH is great. But in the world of martial arts is absolutely nothing special AT ALL.
    It's strikes and joint locks. It's breakaways and throws. It's grip releases and kicks.
    It's not magic and pulling the "Well you don't do CH so you can't comment" just really won't cut it.
    We don't let the Ninjutsu guys get away with that elitism and they play that card ALL the time.
     
  12. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    *Raises hand also* I got hit in the throat before with intent to hurt. It was a terrible and also terrifying experience. Also, none of us can really know for sure if the other person is lying, we can say whatever we want basically, but it is much safer to assume that another person on this forum is telling the truth, rather than assuming they are lying. Most of the people on here are martial artists, and a large principle of almost every style is honesty, respect, etc. I know, I know there are the McDojos and other schools such as ... Enhanced Martial Arts that claim to have all these things and ingrain all these principles into children. But really now, this is the internet, there is really no gain from lying to each other, other than making ourselves feel better, and winning some "awe" from the other members, which honestly won't matter outside of here. We aren't making money from saying we have these qualifications and can teach this and that, not here. Maybe in the real world, if we did, (not saying we do) we could make some good money from this. So please, trust us. :D (I feel like I have some wrong points in here that I'm gonna get some flak on, well, when it comes, haha, don't be too harsh please)
     
  13. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I've been punched in the throat and neck while sparring, with the full wrath of a cross or hook. It sucks like nothing else. Teaches you to tuck your chin. I would say a throat punch in an environment you're not expecting it would probably drop you or the other person pretty quick. It's not pleasant at all.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    (Nerd hat on) Great Stepney fire surely...?
     
  15. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    I agree, I learned very quickly to tuck my chin in. Good lesson, terrible way to have to learn it.
     
  16. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I understand that... just about ANY strike out there is going to be hit or miss. From my understanding (which isn't much at all) arts such as wing chun and such that teach constant attack seem like effective methods for street encounters, much like a pressure fighter in boxing that breaks down his opponents, of course i'd much rather be a Mayweather or a Sweet Pea since they hardly get/got hit in many of their fights.

    Wing chun didn't seem to fair to well on some of the videos i've seen, BUT it might be much more effective as a street combat than the typical youtube Wing Chun vs (insert another MA here), so I cannot say. Even JKD seems like a good method of attack.

    I've said that if under a real pressure situation by purely muscle memory and practicing I would be much more likely to throw the jab, uppercut, left hook and straight right combo or something to that effect. I worked on combos sort of at random when I would shadow box, but they all got pretty fluid for a time and then my shoulder issues started back up, so I had to be much more cautious with what I did.
     
  17. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    Wing Chun is very good for some, it works, like all martial arts, sometimes it is the lack of mobility that may not let it work and for others, that is just what they want, a deeply rooted stance (This is from the fighters I have sparred that take Wing Chun). From the Wing Chun fighters I have sparred, they have very overwhelming hands techniques, but they don't have much power behind them. There isn't much weight that is thrown behind it. If they lock you up, you're in their territory and its hard to combat it, especially if you are just sparring and not aiming to jack them up, such as by going for the knees and groin. Most martial arts are great fighting systems, it is all dependent on the martial artist as to whether he wins or loses.
     
  18. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    So, wouldn't those be more likely to be your "go to" strikes under pressure? After all, it's not a time for the luxury of sitting back and trying to decide what to do. It's the sudden realization you're being attacked and your immediate response to it. The more you think about something, the more likely you're going to get the worst of it.

    Funny video here, but it proves a point. Though probably not trained, he had good instincts. The moment he realized there was a threat, he responded. This would be his "go to" strike, if you will.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnX0u5QZC8w"]Why not to scare black people - YouTube[/ame]
     
  19. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse


    My God, when I first watched that video I was eating oreos, and along with its beverage of choice, milk. The milk started to come out of my nose I was laughing so hard.
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Another good one along those same lines:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4IgSVRqA-E"]Never scare someone trick or treating. - YouTube[/ame]
     

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