What is your favourite Taiji fighting technique?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by jkzorya, May 11, 2007.

  1. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    I'm not interested in looking at clips which would (apparently) support your cursory disregard for my observation.

    No thanks.


    Sorry, I won't.


    I can think of one scenario where the "back bow" (or whatever whoever wants to call it) could be useful.

    How about using it to exert more pressure on an opponent's throat without having to straighten your arm?

    If I can think of one use (not being an "expert", as I said in my first post) then I would assume that there would be other uses.

    I'm not going to go 'round and 'round with you on this. I offered an observation, that's all. You dismissed it, one or two didn't. No point in getting worked up over it.

    L Q
  2. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Chill out dude, don't take it so personally when someone doesn't agree with what you said. I didn't disregard it, I posted a reply to the point of providing examples. If you want to cry and take your ball home when fine.

    Regarding your example, I can't comment on it as I don't know what you are meaning. Too vague, need more of a description.
    Last edited: May 25, 2007
  3. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    I guess I'm just a little more polite when I disagree with someone. Do a search on me sometime - as far as I know, I don't have any "enemies" here.

    Fair enough.

    No crying here.

    I assume you meant to write "then fine". It looks like you're more upset about this than I am.

    Yeah, I'll chill out. No harm done, ok?

  4. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    James Wing Woo points out something interesting about kickboxers - if their techniques are so deadly, how come the contestants manage to leave the ring alive?

    Many boxers and kickboxers are completely uprooted when they fight. They also wear boxing gloves and sometimes headguards. Why? To make their attacks less effective and prolong the agony. Their body mechanics are not optimum - if Tai Chi people thought they were, they wouldn't do Tai Chi instead. Boxers might throw their twelve stones at each other, but without rooting their power may be limited. And crucially - they don't have to worry about being grabbed or joint locked. Or poked in the eye.

    The wrestlers can afford to overcommit their weight forwards because grappling maneuvers are all they have to worry about. Would they lean over like that if they could get kneed in the head as soon as they bent forwards? No. How about if someone was just waiting to pluck out their eyeball? No again.

    Sports are stylised contests with little to do with real fighting. We should not overly focus on them because anyone who means you real harm is not going to fight by a set of rules. As I'm sure you are well aware when it suits you to be.

    People spend too much time arguing for the sake of it and because they have too much pride to ever back down. Personally, I'm just always right ;) :D
  5. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    A typo, the keys are next to each other. Not exactly a sign of being upset. However we are digressing here from the thread. Lets move on. :cool:
  6. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Deal :cool:

  7. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Can't ever say I have personally met any kickboxers who claim it is deadly. Effective yes, deadly no.

    When they strike they are quite rooted as they generate their force through their feet. Ever see that fight science program? Think the discovery channel done it. They got together all kinds of martial artists - boxers, kickboxers, kung fu, ninjitsu, jiu jitsu, all sorts - rigged them up to machines to record force and impact. Can you guess who hit the hardest and generated the most force with a strike? Is this the effect of being uprooted?

    Yes and no. You put your head into their jaw to control their head. They can't knee you then. I have done it myself. I have had it done to me and their is no way to knee them in the head if they have head control on you. You have to You have to get your head in a better position before you can either think to attack.

    I think the opposite. I think they provide you with real skills you can transfer to a real fight. If I had to side with either someone who has done 5 years of mauy thai or someone who has done 5 years of some reality based self defence martial art I will side with the kickboxer everytime, no second thoughts. It brings me the whole 'poke in the eye thing'. Most people can't even hit a moving target in the chin, never mind poke them in the eye. As you say they won't be playing by the rules so how are you going to prod them in the eyeball?

    People spend too much time arguing for the sake of it and because they have too much pride to ever back down. Personally, I'm just always right ;) :D[/QUOTE]
  8. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I never miss the eye...

    If they can see me, their eyes are mine...

    I ain't "most people"

    No sir, pardner.

    Anyways, who says ya can't practice both and know the limitations of each? We spar too, just not all the time...
    Last edited: May 25, 2007
  9. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Okay, here is an sport fighter, a man ineffectual on the street.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQDBnyQEm9M&mode=related&search="]Some brutal fights, Compliments of WWW.MuayThaiInTheAv.com - YouTube[/ame]

    When is anyone going to get the chance to poke him in the eye? Be serious. Others should note, when you are training with your partner doing push hands and applications, remember this is what you may be dealing with. Not a nice soft gentle partner.
  10. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Yer preachin' to tha converted, boy.

    Now quit yer bellyachin'
  11. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Bellyachin' quited.
  12. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi LQ, don't worry about it - I think we just went into banter mode a bit.

    Now then, for what it is worth, the spine, as I understand it from two of my teachers should maintain its natural s bend.

    The bai hui (not the crown, but the actual top of the head - the bit headphones (or earmuffs :D ) sit on top of) should be in vertical alignment with the hui jin, around the perineum.

    So the vertical line falls slightly in front of the spine.

    Regarding bows, there is a horizontal one - the back of the shoulders should be rounded and the chest should be flat, but not concaved. Other bows sometimes referred to are - the front of the torso is like a bow with the spine as the bowstring. Horizontally, across the lower back should be flat, but across the front should be bowed (when doing deep abdominal breaths). Also each leg and each arm is a bow and sometimes across the back of the shoulders into both arms is said to be a single bow. There are meant to be 5 bows in all, but some people cheat by counting both arms and both legs as 2 each. The Yangs are less inclined to describe the single bow across the back of the shoulders into both arms as a single bow than the Chens, because the Yangs emphasise keeping the elbows more dropped, whereas the Chens prefer the elbows to float out more to permit better reeling silk rotation using the whole arm.

    Attached Files:

  13. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Man having you all in different time zones make for a lot of catching up on threads :D
    Pirate, I can see you point and it is well taken. However, I hate to be terribly picky here, but you are truly comparing apples and celery (yeah imo the comparison is that far off :D ) Tai chi practitioners are not wrestlers or boxers as JK pointed out.

    This is simply muscle generated power. Of course someone that works only on punching would have the most effective punch, this would be like comparing a golfer to a soccer player for kicking strength. In Tai Chi we work on alignment and what I consider to be a bit more finesse. The other arts that were mentioned in this discovery channel bit did not focus only on punching. Where did the boxer land in kicks? or locks? This is an unfair comparison.

    The act of bending the spine has numerous applications and I am not personally saying either is right or wrong. Obviously we have all seen it done (or done it ourselves) numerous times and we adapt it as our own because we see it's effectiveness. Maybe bending the spine is too difficult for some because of their own physique, so they work around it with a straighter spine, but generate their power elsewhere. Or vice versa, this is the beauty of the art of Tai Chi (imo) because it can be suited to work for everyone. My teacher used to say "An art that can be catered to anyone? This art truly becomes your own, GOD WHAT A GREAT ART!" I feel the same, though I understand the importance of learning different methods so we can learn to be more effective overall.

    Also, not saying here boxers are not rooted. From what I have seen (not a boxer so I cannot say for sure) they are rooted, but in an entirely different way than Tai Chi. They don't use what I call full body root, they start with their weight on their back leg and quickly transfer the weight forward almost springing forward (like some h'sing I). Though, they don't always incorporate the entire spine or even hips, let alone the power of the forward foot. At least from what I have seen, sorry if I am wrong to any boxers.

    Regarding the eyes, be awfully hard to get to the eyes with them blasted gloves on :D

    Great points here JK,
    I agree with them being uprooted as they tend to have to be for their kind of mobility that is necessary in their fights. Not saying that we in Tai Chi are ineffective at footwork and mobility, but let's be honest, we don't "Box" like these two professions.

    To bring this back to light,
    I think what LQ was saying here is that if you have opponent in at choke hold, with say the right hand, and you wanted to exert more force without extended the right arm, then by utilizing and "bowing the back" you can increase your pressure on the throat. (Hope that is close LQ, though I cannot think of a good app where this might take place :D )

    One app we have that uses the back bow is when we do Single whip. We do the normal motion of single whip, however, when the forward palm is completely forward (in this app. think of single whip as a palm blade strike) we gently "Bow the back" to get in a 2nd seeming imperceptible strike. This is only achieved by not using muscular strength, but rather by bowing the back and honestly sinking the weight a bit more, so the strike amounts to more of a straight arm push, but I am hesitant to say just a push, b/c of the use of hips and back.

    Thanks for the kind words LQ,

    I want to make clear though I am not saying eliminate the back bow b/c of possibility of overextension. Rather, I am saying that the back bow prevents overextension of the bodyweight. Similar to my described technique above, we are not overextending and putting more weight in the forward foot, but rather sinking and utilizing the back and hips to make a second strike. Thus, eliminating the need or worry of overextension in this application.

    Though, that is not to say that as beginning students we have a tendency to not utilize this back bow and overextend, wait what I am saying, beginners always are perfect :Angel:
  14. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I just wanted to add that the rounded dang (from heel to heel) is another one of the "5" bows.

    Regarding spine movement, there certainly is some in Chen style Taijiquan. There are 3 planes for "dantian rotation" which require the spine to ripple, undulate (or bow) in different ways. Simple horizontal rotation is merely the turning of the torso around its vertical axis and there are different opinions about the amount of play to have in your waist. It can easily be too soft, but a small delay between hips and shoulder movement as your power accumulates upwards through your torso is often apparent when really letting rip with whipping strikes in particular.

    Vertical "dantian rotation" involves a far bit of play in the lower back, making it convex then concave (viewed from behind). A typical movement might be "Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar." Sideways-vertical "rotation" involves some S shaped rippling sideways. This is why the essential upright idea is so important. It is the default setting for a wriggly snake (the spine) impaled on an upright pole near its head and near its tail.

    I just need to add that dantian rotation is just a metaphor for the play that occurs in the torso, especially around the lower spine, and I'm done. :)
  15. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Thanks J, one less thing to worry about :)

  16. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Hi TQ,

    I know how you feel :)

    Yes TQ, that's exactly what I meant. No, I can't readily think of a good app either. Maybe you could come to Jersey sometime and we could work it out? :)

    You're welcome.

    Okie dokie.

    Well, I guess beginners are perfect at beginning. You know, the more I write "beginners", the more wrong it looks :eek:

  17. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Would love to, but with school for the next two years my travel time is extremely limited (I still need to see the woman I live with, and went through that one ceremony with...oh yes, marriage! Now if I can just remember her name :D ) Seriously though, I would love the chance down the road. Also doesn't master Ren Guang Yi teach somewhere near you? That would be great as well. Maybe if there is a weekend seminar or something???

    Your post about the Dantians (I know you used quotes, but alas I cannot bring myself too) was exquisite and made quite a bit of sense. I can see how the bows would thus be affected by such a rotation. Good post!
  18. Libraquan

    Libraquan Tenacious Member

    Hi TQ,

    You'll be needing your taiji if you can't remember her name... :eek:

    I think he visits Philly sometimes. I don't know much about him actually, but I'll dig around!

  19. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    This question got lost once we got on the Ji kick, so I wanted to "revive" it as I am still curious what you all think.
  20. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi TQ,
    The way we learned the methods in Chen style was easiest to understand. If the arm is travelling upwards, that's peng; down = an; any sideways movement = lie; forwards = ji. A defensive backwards / sideways diversion = lu.

    So whenever your arm is contacting an opponent's limb, face or body, ask your self what is its purpose and its direction, and this should give you some idea of which method it is. Oblique lines are simple combinations - so an oblique upwards deflection might be peng-lu, but a circular rising and then rolling sideways deflection might be peng transforming into lu. If it is used to smash and damage the attacker's limb, you could see it as peng-lie.

    That's how I think of it and it makes for a very simple, versatile and usable system. :)

    You can also think in terms of movement qualities, but to be honest, that does add another layer of complexity that is often unnecssary and potentially limiting. E.g. - peng is considered expansive, cai is sudden and sharp, zhou is folding or unfolding...

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