What is your approach to BJJ/grappling

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by icefield, Mar 2, 2023.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If only we had footage of a boxer trying to knock out a BJJ black belt under MMA rules...

    I guess we'll just have to assume the boxer won!
    axelb and icefield like this.
  2. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Maybe we would flail, but my point is less about position and more about getting one solid punch in and ending things, rather than Carlson's "each punch removes a belt grade" which is, I think, untrue. A single punch can kill someone.
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That's not really true.

    Your head dropping dead-weight onto concrete can kill you. The chances of a single punch itself killing someone are minute. Like, almost impossible level of probability.

    But you already know that because you're a boxer.
  4. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    This is the thing, though. We weren't discussing MMA rules, but BJJ people quoting Carlson when taking up boxing. The quote is about punching someone who trains Brazilian Jiujitsu in the face, that somehow it degrades their performance.

    I agree with that, of course. I just don't agree with Carlson's contention that it's that granular. With that kind of logic, it takes 5 punches to turn a BJJ black belt into a white belt. I have to say, from solid experience, unless someone is very well trained at taking hard hits to the face, it's just not valid.

    And I know my boxing history and MMA history well, I know all about Royce Gracie vs. Art Jimmerson.

    Ironically, Royce had to pick up Thai boxing once his opponents started coming better prepared. He got his face caved in pretty badly, which I think shows why even the famed Gracie JJ had flaws. If it hadn't Royce would have been better prepared from UFC1 onward.
  5. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Why do you believe this? It's totally untrue.
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Give me a list of people who have died from taking a single punch, WITHOUT the cause of death being head injury from hitting the ground.

    Then give me a list of incidents of every person getting punched in the head ever and not dying.

    Then we can tally them up and get a rough ratio.
  7. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Couple things.

    First, let's show some mutual respect going forward. Throwing shade on anyone's training history is unnecessary. I don't do it to you, I'd request the same courtesy in return.

    Second, I would fearlessly enter a boxing ring with anyone here, or Carlson Gracie for that matter, because I have well over a decade of boxing training, and I keep in conditioned shape. I haven't competed, but I've sparred hundreds of people quite a few of whom have.

    I thought we were past the era of considering the Gracie clan a sacred cow. Just because Carlson is a well trained fighter, with significant experience, doesn't mean things he says are canonical.

    I just asked some questions, that's all, because what Carlson said seems to be, as you Deadpool and David are pointing out, HIGHLY interpretative. In other words, speculative. Right?

    Do you also believe one punch killing a person is remote? Because that's just crazy to me. Even trained MMA fighters can be killed with blunt head trauma fairly easily. Hell, there are illegal head strikes banned because they can cause instant death.
  8. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    It's as simple as looking it up on Google, David. It's in the news now and then. People get punched in the face, and just die. What does it matter the ground contributed? The root cause is punch to the face.

    This is why MMA referees end ground and pound very quickly, too. It's a great way to kill a person, right?

    Boxers get concussions and CTE, not from hitting the ring canvas (which is actually kind of soft and bouncy) but from KO blows.

    But I hear this argument a lot from the broader martial arts community. People love to think they train hard, and so they're just going to bob and weave and if they get hit hard in the face, shake it off like Rocky. I think the Rocky movies perpetuate this myth, actually.
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Those illegal head strikes were legal in VT and the first few UFC's.
    Grond likes this.
  10. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    I can see the point in today's training, BJJ rarely has any striking practice. Early Gracie JJ in UFC it was regular part of the training from what I understand.

    So by today's standards I think pure BJJ Vs pure boxing match would look a lot different.

    Other factors are power generation in ground striking is a lot different to standing.
    There is some crossover, but over the last few decades MMA has a specific training style to cover these scenarios which you wouldn't get from training each respective component style differently.

    As someone who went from a very pure grappling style to pure striking I could definitely feel the context of that quote, but after being in MMA training then going back to grappling only I see a different perspective which those in pure grappling or striking may not understand as well.

    I like to play with various guards in BJJ which I know are a risky choice in an MMA context, just because it's fun and I enjoy the sport for what it is, but always have the thought in the back of my head which is there from many rounds of being hit on the ground.
    Unless you trained in that context it's hard to know.
    Grond likes this.
  11. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Sure, but you don't see them used because for the most part I don't think Vale Tudo or UFC fighters actually tried to kill other people, Bloodsport style.

    So because I'm being honest, I did what you asked and there's are a lot of videos of people generally taking one punch and dying either immediately or within a few days.

    The instant concussive blast of a KO, when it happens in boxing, is lights out, one punch. See Floyd Mayweather vs. Manny Pac.

    When it happens in the ring, the canvas floor is specifically designed to help protect the KO'd person. They're not KO'd from hitting the canvas, they are already on their way to see Mr. Sandman in the seconds it takes to fall down.

    But here you go, I googled "person gets punched and died" and it's a long string of news stories about people getting sucker punched in the street, or punched in the face by bar bouncers.

    It doesn't happen in boxing that often because of the safety equipment, but it has.

    person gets punched and dies - Google Search
  12. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    And I know we're getting a little off topic sort of, so I'll leave it with this.

    ANY single punch can be a KO. Happens all the time in the street, AND in combat sports.

    If that's true Carlson Gracie's quote is just not that accurate. If anything, I do agree with Icefield and others, he was trying to make a point to the "grapple only" BJJ crowd, don't just assume because Royce was able to feint and double leg Art Jimmerson, that your personal BJJ is going to survive a decent boxer's hand hammer.

    Sorry for the intrude Icefield, I was just sharing some personal anecdotes here.
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I can find one instance of a punch from behind twisting the skull enough to sever a vertebral artery. All others are a result of head injuries from hitting the floor.

    The fact these rare cases make the news is because they are extremely rare, when compared to the amount of people hit in the head who don't die.
  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I'm not throwing shades I'm simply quoting your own words
    I'm struggling to see how someone saying the above would have sparred bjj blackbelts on a regular basis?
    Carlson is dead, any MMA fan would sort of know that so hard to jump into the ring with him fearlessly or not

    As for the illegal head strikes instantly killing people let's just agree to disagree shall me
  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Ironically when those strikes were allowed and no gloves worn knockouts happened less frequently
    David Harrison likes this.
  16. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    @Grond - you are being silly. There is no 1 punch to 1 belt formula.
    No one has argued that.
    I brought up the Carlson quote and stated it was (obvious) hyperbole...

    Also my original conversation was about striking and playing bjj guard.

    Boring Fridays make for needless arguments online I guess
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    No one has argued against this the entire thread. Mate come on...
  18. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Carlson Gracie's entire argument is easily summarized as:

    "getting punched in the face lowers your BJJ levels."

    OK, a lot of people read that in different ways.

    But getting punched in the face reminds you however many years you've spent on getting belts, doesn't matter. Karate, TKD, kung fu, whatever. Look, I'm wiser than any Gracie now.

    One thing I hate about martial artists is that they don't really spend a lot of time in boxing gyms.

    One punch can tank anybody. And I'm willing to bet nobody here has taken a punch to the face recently. My last few, a few years back, I remember fondly. It was the result of several side hooks that I didn't properly defend myself against.
  19. Grond

    Grond Valued Member


    But that was Carlson Gracies entire argument. And the one that keeps getting repeated.

    "BJJ get punched, you go down a level".

    With serious respect to Icefield, no. This quote is specifically targeted at people who get black belts rolling around on the ground and would find their whole world changed if they met a fist in the face.

    Royce Gracie met fists in the face once UFC started to equal out with boxers who could handle a double leg. Which is child's play, come on.
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Do you actually think your posts through before you press post?

    dealing with a double leg is child's play
    Grapplers whole world's change when they get punched

    It honestly sounds like you are rehashing the same arguements from the early part of the century when UFC first came out

    Next thing you will be saying is striking is too dangerous and one punch can kill a grappler

    Oh wait my bad you have already said that :)
    Next will be tai chi is too deadly for the cage I suppose :)

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