What is the point/reasoning in MA's or TMA's behind breaking ice/wood/etc?

azeitung-
damn!
lol
*doubts mr. love can recover from that*

 

Gee wiz, lets just throw that to the wind , and just go a bit further....how about the ultimate test of technique would be surviving a confrontation in the real world.....using those same techniques thaught in class and using the principles used in breaking.....

Yeap just made it up, right out of thin air... NOT now that would not have served a single purpose would it?? Medical fact, 12 pounds to break a rib, if the weight is applied in the correct manner, never said you could break any bone with 12 pounds , but I'm pretty sure you can break and bone with 12 pounds if it is givin the amount of needed velocity....just science...

Dang and all these years I thought it was a standard unit of measurement for weight...

You are somewhat correct .. it kinda breaks down like this Speed is the most essential factor of force or power, Scientifically, force equals mass x acceleration (FMA) or P=MV squared...

I think I like you!!!! Everybody like's a funny guy!!

I guess I will say it for a third time with a little added content....just for you...

Ok, as I have said on previous reply's...... The same principle, the same techniques used in Tamashiwari, are the same techniques used in all martial arts and the outcomes of propertly used techniques, I'll break it down to 7 aspects, hope I dont lose you....

1.Reaction force.... If your opponet were rushing towards you at a high rate of speed, by the slightest blow at his head, the force with which you strike his head would be that of his own force plus that of the force of your blow..
The two forces combined: his,which is large, and yours , which is small, are quite impressive. This then is the reactionary force from the opponent, another reaction force is yours.

2. Concentration..By applying the impact force onto the smallest target area, it will concentrate the force and therefore increase its effectiveness..

3.Equilibrium.. Balance is of the utmost importance.. A body that is well balanced can produce a effective blow to an adversary. Equilibrium is classified into both dynamic and static stability.

4. Breath control... your a martial artist, I should not have to go over proper breath control to produce a good techniques.

5. Mass.. Mathematically, the maximum kinetic energy or force is obtained from maximum body weight and speed and it is all important the the body weight be increased during the execution of a technique...

6.Speed... I think I covered that with the forementioned mathmatical equation (FMA) or P=MV squared...

7. Speed and reflex.... It is essential for the students of martial arts to understand the relation of the speed and the execution timing of techniques in order to apply them effectively, achieving precise measurements of these factors has been very difficult due to the great speed at which martial arts techniques are preformed...


So see there, everything used in Tamashiwari is used in almost every Dojo around the world and is the base in which all good strong techniques are made of...



A topic of this nature will always have the people that are hardlined against and those that are for it and to argue about it does nothing for our Arts, if anything for those people looking in from the outside, it makes us look like children. In retrospect, I have informed some people and got others upset..life goes on..

Mr. Love

 

regarding the teaching of kids and MA
i do not teach kids... period.. youngest is 16 and that was an exception for his parents who are also students
I teach Krav Maga classes to adults who do not want to compete and we teach BJJ, MT, and MMA classes at my school.
kids are welcome to train MA.. just not with me...
i refuse to babysit, pick kids up from school, teach "throttled" MA, etc...
they can train with you and break boards for all i care
when they are old enough to want to learn how to fight for real
in a ring or with a knife or modern weapons... THEN they can search me out...
I'd say 80% of my students come from another art.. many of them studied as kids.. i did (judo until wrestling)
i know i do not run a mcdojo...
no belts, no testing fees, no bowing, nothing but training.. pure and simple
if your in miami, your welcome to come join me & see
just send me a PM
now.. back to justifying wasting your time breaking crap

 

So if you have a daughter, you wouldn't teach her a thing about self defense until after she hits her 18th birthday? I am willing to bet that philsophy would change real quick if you have a daughter.

So at 18, a person is man enough to go die for their country but at 17 and 364 days they are immature children who can't possibly learn any ma. Ok, I know I am twisting it a little bit. But there are most definitely 14 year olds that are far more mature than many of the 18 year olds.

You say that you teach Krva Maga to those who don't want to compete. You also teach MT, BJJ, and MMA to adults. I assume you mean that you teach those to the ones who want to compete. There does seem to be a lot of prejudice on this board against anyone who doesn't do mma or MT and BJJ.

Do you mind my asking how old are you?

 

I'm 32
and in regards to my own children.. when they are old enough I'll enroll them in judo lessons taught by another [ussually best with family unless you poached your wife from your student body (mcdojo classic move)]
if they want to continue learning in their teens I'll teach them...
my own kids only... not others.. and not in adult classes
there is nothing worse (to me) than mcdojos peppered with kids in adult classes
MAs are great for kids... don't get me wrong, structure, althetics.. coordination, etc... all great stuff... I simply have no need or desire to teach them...
and to clarify.. most students take MT, KM and BJJ in some combo.. ussually having a preference for one or another set of classes....
in regards to your rights at 18.. frankly I do not give a damn about all that
sorry - I have to draw the line for myself and my student body somewhere
that line is 18 or my granting an exception (which has been rare over the years as I said)
no need for you to get offended.... plenty of other places for kids to trianin miami
not like mine is the only school....

 

i definitely agree with kmguy. there's nothing more annoying than trying to teach someone who is either not dedicated or has a short attention span...and kids usually fall under both categories.

 

*You can break any bone with as little as 175grains with the right velocity, thats one of the things fire arms do, 12lbs it's just a figure you lulled out your head or something you saw but did not understand, maybe you are mixed up with foot pounds or foot pounds per second? Hardly science more like scientific illiteracy.
** body weight increased during a technique? How do you do that scoff pies during a conflict? Do you have a way of using Chi to mainline ice cream or something? Again scientific illiteracy.

 

Just going to add that if there were no real purpose to doing breakings why do so many MA's teach it or use it ? And also, just to keep up with all the 'funny' guys on here, if it was so easy why doesn't any person from the street do it instead of the bb MA'ists at demos ? I sure would love to see an inexperienced guy from the street try to break an ice block, a brick or a wooden board. I'm sure that person would walk away with a broken arm fairly easily.

Christian

 

That would fall into the mistaken category of "tradition". "We've always done it, therefore we shall continue to do it even if it is pointless or meaningless to us as martial artists in 2006."

 

All due respect to those that can break a big chunk of ice! After reading this thread I'm still not convinced I should drop some training, ie hitting a heavy bag and instead spend time learning to break objects. I believe the carry-over from hitting a heavy bad, focus mits etc to be of more benefit. Just my thoughts on the matter!

Another point, I've seen TKD guys break a lot of boards with there feet, but why does this seem less common with karate? Do they ever break blocks of ice with their shins/feet

 

I am not offended at all. I am just trying to understand your point. Your previous post sounded more like kids shouldn't train. In this one, you clarify that you just don't want to be involved in training kids. That is perfectly fine. It is your choice on who you want to train.

You point out that there is benefit to training kids and that was what I was wanting to find out.

 

I am not sure you should stop hitting your heavy bag either. Did anyone ever say that you should?

The more I think about it, the more I believe that both forms and breaking were used as a means of training that worked extremely well for TMA's because of the technologies that were available at the time and the general culture.

500 years ago, most people had plenty of exercise. They worked far more than a 40 hour week and it was physical labor. Today, the average is less than 40 hours a week and very little of it is hard physical labor. People did not need a method of hard training but rather a means to learn defense techniques. They also could not afford to be laid up for a while due to an injury from training. There was no hospital, no welfare, etc. They might die from injuries that are not life threatening today or starve because they couldn't work their fields. Thus forms were an excellent manner in which to teach techniques and the flow of techniques. People understood that the form was not the answer to fighting but showing the techniques they could use and how to flow from one technique to another.

Because people could not afford injuries, live resisistance training with full contact was not the wisest choice. Something had to be done to show power, focus, speed, and proper technique. Pads and heavy bags are a great choice today. But we have better materials and manufacturing methods today. They would also be something that was easily seen by people that were in charge and MA's were not always legal for the peasants to learn. They also required the assistance of another person to hold them. Breaking boards, bricks, etc. served the purpose but didn't have those downsides. I don't think anyone trained in a manner that required doing lots of breaking. Rather it was a rare thing to do.

Are either forms or breaking necessarily the best training methods today? No. Depending on the circumstances, live full contact training can be better for developing the fighter.

However, like many people I like forms and breaking because they are the art of a martial art. I could already fight. Not too many people have ever started a fight with me because of my size. I wanted something more than just being able to win a fight.

Breaking or destruction is probably the part I like the best. When we break in class, about every 2-3 months, we do it from smallest to largest which means I go last. I always try to exceed everyone else in the power of my breaks, which usually isn't saying much because I am bigger. I like the audience reaction when wood pieces go flying all over the place. Yes it is an ego thing. But that doesn't change the fact that it does have some value and is a purely objective means of identifying whether or not you hit the board with power, focus, and technique.

Try it and you may like it.

 

People from "The street" don't have time to practice breaking. Their lives are a constant struggle and battle to survive against the myriad dangers they face in their dangerous habitat.

If they injured themselves attempting to break they'd have a disadvantage when trying to sieze food to feed their desperate families and when beating off the dozens of armed thugs.

 

Good post New learner.

A good bit of background to why it was used. I think if i did do it, it'd be more for the enjoyment of breaking something than the benefit from it. Much like you say yourself. I've never broken anything during training, the only thing I've broken was a pick axe handle, after a hard day when it wouldn't fit in the car

 

It very easy to to, simply move.....a moving object's impact force is greater than one that is not in motion......slow down and read what the equations meant....

This is strait form the Journal of american medicine


Typical values for some types of human bones are:


bone strength (MPa)
femur (upper leg) 167
humerus (upper arm) 132
radius (forearm) 114
tibia (shin) 159
cervical vertebrae (neck) 10
lumbar vertebrae (lower back) 5
thoriacic cage (ribs) 1.8

(MPa) how to figure it out to kilo's

Kilo x 3 = 1 Mpa for instance the thoriacic cage (rib) 1.8 MPa = 6.6 x1.8= 11.88 pounds of pressure to break...or compress

 

Then force is greater not weight, pressure is mass (not the same as weight) times speed over area, force equals mass times acceleration. Kinetic Energy that a body has as a result of its motion, it is defined as one-half the product of a body's mass and the square of its speed.
basic physics.

An object that is not in motion would not have an impact force :bang: :bang:
As I said you are not understanding what you are reading.

 

While that's true, I'm just pointing out that even in a safe, controlled environment, there is still a better test of martial arts skill than breaking.

You can break any bone with 10 grams with the right velocity. That doesn't mean anything.

Um. . . it's a unit of force. Weight is a measure of force, not mass. Mass*accelleration due to gravity = mass*distance/time^2 = force. That's not even college physics.

Thank God you told me that. After completing my undergraduate requirements for a physics degree, it was about time I learned something useful.

But actually, I don't know why you said squared. p = mv and kinetic energy = 1/2mv^2 F = ma = dp/dt = dKe/dx. MV squared, whether you meant (mv)^2 or mv^2 is not a meaningful quantity in physics (although p^2/2m is kinetic energy again).

Good for me, then.

So, you practice with boards that are running at you at high speeds? This has pretty much nothing to do with board breaking.

Unfortunately, wooden planks don't have the same kind of "target areas" that human bodies do. And hitting them the same way will produce very different results. In what way does board breaking train your concentration in a manner useful for combat?

Equilibrium and balance have very little relevance to board breaking. There are much better ways to work on that. Even standing on one leg requires a lot more balance. In what way does board breaking teach you balance?

Is the kind of breathing done when breaking boards important for martial arts ability? Does it even matter when you break the board? Of course easterners would probably say yes, but the sharp inhalation, exhalation, and shouting (we called it Ki Cho Jah ki in Kuk Sool) seemed to have very little relavance to anything. It's certainly not something I would ever have time for in a fight, and the boards seemed to break with or without it. We did it at the demos, but mostly for show, and because that's what we were supposed to do.

You can't increase your body weight. Weight is the measure of the accelleration of gravity multiplied by your body mass. Unless you go to another planet or chop off your arms, this is constant.

Why do you keep saying squared? P = mv. Your ammbiguously attached "squared" is not part of the equation anywhere.

And if you hit a board at the wrong time, it won't break? I used to do some board breaking when I was in kuk sool, and I never had that problem. Timing didn't seem to enter into it at all.

Slice it any way you want, but board breaking is nothing more than hitting a stationary target that doesn't hit back or respond in any way like a human body.

 

Just wanted to point out quickly here, pressure is actually force/area and weight *is* a measure of force, but it's a measure of a very specific force, which is equal to m*g (g = accelleration due to gravitiy), and thus is constant.

 

Pgm316... TKD guys tend to break more with their feet simply because of the higher emphasis of foot/leg techniques in TKD over karate. Karate people tend to prefer to stay rooted (which is NOT the same as being immobile), so end up kicking less and relying more on hand techniques. If you look at the guard of an average TKD student (guard, what guard?) in a tournament, this is fairly clear... their main weapons are their feet and legs; hands are an afterthought.

That said, I have broken boards with kicks (back, side), and stacks of bricks with a stomp kick (definitely the easiest brick breaking technique). As I don't use kicks quite so much as the TKD guys & gals, I find getting the focus of the kick correct for board breaking is a little harder (aka more challenging) than on the hand techniques.