What is the difference between Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by The Wiseman, Nov 14, 2010.

  1. The Wiseman

    The Wiseman Valued Member

    I'm interested in learning one of these and they all look the same to me...

    Also, would it be a good art to study while at the same time studying wing chun? I know there are a lot of wing chun (i hate to use the word) :woo:"haters":woo: out there in the forum but I want to know. Will I be studying two WAAAY different things? Two WAAAY similar things? Or two WAAAY .. I dunno you fill in the blanks k?
     
  2. blindside

    blindside Valued Member

    They are all terminology to describe different branches of the Filipino Martial Arts. As a really general trend the "kali" branches tend to have more of an edged weapon approach while escrima and arnis tend toward impact weapon, but that is only a very general trend. Like anything else, get a good instructor, don't worry about the particular system.

    As for WC and FMA, well, I do have a student who has spent a fair amount of time doing WC and he points out all kinds of similarities (and many differences) and he originally had a big problem with the Kali footwork because it was very different from what he was used to in WC. I would suggest picking one and focusing on it until you get pretty proficient.
     
  3. kuntaoer

    kuntaoer Valued Member

    Actually the terms eskrima and arnis comes from the spanish influences during their occupation of the Philippines.. These were the terms used in the Luzon and certain areas of the Visayas where the spanish rule was more predominate.. Kali was a term that signified a portion of the arts from Mindanao and lower parts of the Visayas where the spanish rule was always under conflict.. Eskrima comes from the spanish term esgrima which mean to skirmish and the term arnis cames from arnis de mano which translated to harness of the hand.. These terms were used as a result of the ruling that the spanish enforced against the weapons that were carried by the farmers and fighters as part of their survival and agricultural requirements..The spanish ruling enforced the use of sticks and did away from the bladed influences, but along with this rule, the plays and dances of the Filipino villages were utilized to teach the fighting and protection abilities of different tribes and villages..

    There are older terms that reflect the other terms of the indigienous Filipino arts such as estokada which was primary a thrusting or stabbing system of eskrima..
     
  4. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    'esgrima' does not mean 'to skirmish,' it means fencing.



    tim
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    But do we know for sure that the Spanish word for fencing doesn't translate into "skirmish"?

    In other words, isn't it possible that it means both?
     
  6. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Eskrima, kali, and arnis are all generic terms, in the same way that "kung fu" and "karate" are generic terms. I wouldn't try to draw conclusions from the terms at all at this point. I've heard it said that "kali" suggests a heightened emphasis on the blade. And "eskrima" and "arnis" might suggest a geographic origin or a heightened Spanish influence.

    But here's the deal as I see it: These terms are in flux all the time. Even in the 20 years I've been involved in FMA, I've seen plenty of styles that did identify as "eskrima" or "arnis" switch to "kali" or some similar transition. At the end of the day, it's a generic name. You can begin to make more generalizations (though not too many) once you get to the specific style. You could make generalizations about Doce Pares versus Pekiti Tirsia versus Sayoc Kali versus Largo Mano versus Serrada Eskrima, etc.

    I haven't studied wing chun myself. But there are certainly plenty of precedents for people involved in both. Emin Boztepe and the JKD Concepts crowd are both obvious examples of groups drawing from both wing chun and FMA.


    Stuart
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well, what we do I call sticks, because it has become a mix of many things.

    But to answer your question slightly, I went to a training seminar that was way above me (basically everyone was moving a million miles per hour and I was moving like a slug), but the instructor described the differences having to do with range of engagement. Now I can't remember which one was which, but one was more for longer sticks, maybe swords... another one was more for shorter sticks or range... and one was for really close range.

    This was the comparison and he showed how the same technique looked different because of the range. The short ranged one was more hooking, joint locks, and almost like unarmed.

    If anyone else has heard this and remembers which ones were the long, medium, short ranges, please post.
     
  8. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    As far as names go, as Ap Oweyn said, Arnis, Eskrima and Kali are used broadly without indicating much about the particular branch of FMA they are applied to. There is a wide range of FMAs, but don't expect tho tell much from which of these terms they associate themselves with.

    Now as for Wing Chun and the FMAs, the combination works for me. I've been involved in both for a while, and the two systems I study mesh pretty well, although I have training partners who would disagree. Personally, I like the variety... from Filipino boxing to blade arts. I feel like it keeps my Wing Chun more "real". And, know what? I haven't had too much trouble with the WC "haters" here. Most of them don't have a particular problem with WC more than any other traditional martial art. They just hate all the BS that's associated with a lot of WC. Can you blame them?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2010
  9. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    These don't correlate to arnis, eskrima, or kali. But they do correlate to 1) ranges found in most FMAs and 2) specialized eskrima styles such as Largo Mano (long range) and Eskrima Serrada (close range).
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks AP. I must have remembered wrong. I thought for sure the instructor was talking about arnis, eskrima and kali... but then his hands were moving a million miles per hour. I had brain overload.
     
  11. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Don't worry, my friend. Whole books could be written on the confusion surrounding FMA terminology. It's absolutely staggering the variance you get in just naming things. :D
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    The difference is the term used and that is basically where it starts and ends. All three are generically the same the only difference being is how each instructor interprets the principles of the art.

    I have a lot of WC guys come to me and they all find both arts compliment each other well so I would not worry too much. The only main problem you may find at first is that there is a lot more movement and footwork in FMA but because of the blade influence you will find it will enhance your trapping skills of WC.

    Best thing to do is go try it and try a few groups first as each may have a different take on it and it may take you a little while to find a group that suits you.

    Best regards
    Pat
     
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Yep. 30 years and still scratching my head hahahaha
     
  14. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    no. 'skirmish' in spanish is 'escaramuza.' as far back as 1732, the royal spanish academy has defined esgrima as 'practicing fighting and battling one with another, in order to learn and to know playing the sword,' and esgrimir as 'to play the practice sword' or 'to offend and wound with a sword.' if you prefer direct translation, minsheu's 'dictionary in spanish and english' from 1599 defines esgrima as 'fence-play, flourishing or brandishing of a weapon,' esgremir (esgrimir) as 'to fence, to flourish a weapon, to play at cudgels or bucklers,' and escaramuça (escaramuza) as 'a skirmish,' and escaramuçar (escaramuzar) as 'to skirmish.' any modern dictionary and bilingual spanish/english speaker will back this up as well.

    in short, yes, we do know. the 'eskrima comes from spanish and means to skirmish' myth was born of dime-store etymology and stuck because it's easy to buy due to the words looking similar. i don't mean to be abrasive about it, but this is one of my pet peeves. there's enough misinformation floating around the fma community without perpetrating easily-verified ones such as this.

    tim
     
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Wow. Excellent post!

    A bit abrasive, yeah. Wasn't spoiling for an argument or anything. Clearly you know your stuff. You can afford to be abrasive if you're accompanying it with an info dump like that. :)
     
  16. mr_sunseeker

    mr_sunseeker New Member

    The following is from the Official Pekiti Tirsia Europe website.

    What's the difference between Kali and Arnis or Eskrima/Escrima?

    The names Arnis and Eskrima stand for "protection of the hand" and for "fencing"/"massacre". They are of Spanish origin and were termed during the influence of the Spanish colonization, when the use of the blades was prohibited by the Spanish (the Philippines have been a Spanish colony for about 330 years and especially the northern region was controlled by the Spanish). The name Kali is derived from the part of Filipino language that is older than the Spanish influence.

    Today some educated traditional masters of the Filipino Martial Arts prefer to use the name Kali to indicate the Filipino origin of this art. The name Kali, related to "kalis" (sword), also indicates the orientation of this martial art to edged weapons. Arnis or Eskrima practitioners often replaced traditional techniques into static methods using blocking and static stances instead of dynamic footwork, sometimes completely losing the appreciation of edge weaponry.
     
  17. oosh

    oosh Valued Member

    "sometimes completely losing the appreciation of edge weaponry"

    This sort of stuff gets a little tiresome to read - I think common sense should prevail, I'd love to see the person who would have gone up to the likes of Inting Carin, Antonio Ilustrisimo, Benjamin Luna Lema, Momoy Canete and told them their Eskrima/Arnis has no appreciation for the blade! it's also disrespectful as these men and so many others used their escrima and arnis to defend their country in WW2.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2010
  18. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Guro Dan Inosanto was asked this question (not for the first time) when he appeared in DC recently. His response was that he used the term "kali" primarily because he'd been instructed by one of his most influential teachers (Floro Villabrille, if I'm remembering correctly) to do so. Villabrille's rationale was that "kali" was an indigenous term (supposedly composed of the words "kamut" and "lihok") where "arnis" and "eskrima" are both derived from Spanish.

    I got the sense that Guro Dan's use of the term had more to do with honouring a teacher's wishes than any inherent objection to the other two terms, which he said he'd used in earlier years.

    He also said that he often just says "Filipino martial arts" to avoid the issue altogether. That's what I tend to do as well. Though I've trained in groups that use each of three terms (Doce Pares Eskrima, Modern Arnis, and Inosanto Kali).


    Stuart
     
  19. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Nicely put Oosh. Hope all is well with you :cool:
     
  20. Mananandata

    Mananandata Valued Member

    Kali, arnis, and eskrima, they're all the same. Three different words referring to the same thing. Maybe three different schools of thought (or lack of it) trying to accomplish the same goal. Sometimes you can study in a school/style/system (e.g. Inosanto Blend) and it seemed like you've studied in all three, i.e. kali, arnis and eskrima. I won't worry much if there's less appreciation of the edge or blade in this or that particular style/system. If its good then it is good.
     

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