I never name called. And I also stated the contacts i gave you were more knowledagble than me, im not going to give you any info in case I am wrong or i mis-represent it. I reccomended you contact them to get your answers.
Can you provide details? What border wars and what Indonesian territories? When did i this happen? Kubilai Khan was mongolian but also China's ruler.... Around where? Have you visited a south asian traditional schools to compare with? Those don't give instructorship after attending a few seminars or distance learning.....and don't offer tapes teaching the secrets of silat for sale...
Oong Mariono has done credible research on the history of silat. This article is interesting: http://www.kpsnusantara.com/rapid/rapid1.htm
Silat and Kilat are two different things. The practice of the Silat, is suppossed to bring out the Kilat, which is the explosive and extremelly fast execution of techniques. This is what it should refer to. Kilat isn't an art in itself. Cheers Wali
Yes in Indonesian si lat means characteristics of lightning by which they mean strike to kill or strike quick and kill. The root words a new word comes from do not always have the identical meaning but usualy have a similar one.
Sorry Wali - I meant that the word silat was derived from the word kilat. Didn't mean to suggest there was another art called Kilat. My bad english.
Yes this one works. The main thing I'm finding in this article is that they talk about pencak and silat as if they are different arts. I was taught that pencak was the training at silat was the art. So you could say you study silat or pencak silat but not that you study pencak? It also seems to me that every source of info on silat has something different to say about it.
It gets quite complicated...In the Philippines the word silat is used for martial arts and pentjak for dance. If I remember well my guro once said that pencak, pentjak, penjak sometimes designate different kind of martial arts in other countries, there may be subtle differences but I am unable to explain them... Then some tribes also use sejurat which means offensive and defensive.....
Yes and no, specifically "No". Indonesia is a big place and has been heavily influenced by many cultures. Chinese was one of them. It wasn't even the most important. Let's consider your information first. You practice an explicitly Chinese martial art which is upfront about being transplanted to and evolving in Indonesia (Bangau Putih). There's already a tendency among Chinese martial artsts to believe that they invented everything. "Shaolin is the mother of all martial arts", etc. Add the often hostile relations between ethnic Chinese and Malays and there are some obvious issues. Nobody will deny that Chinese immigrants knew how to fight and that where they made contact with Malays the martial arts cross-pollinated. But to say that Silat is Chinese martial arts is at odds with reality. You'd have been on much firmer ground if you'd said "India" instead of "China". But you still would not have been correct.
Which people are you talking about? Read Todd's (Tellner's) post. It pretty much gets to the root of your issue, Lohan. I've spent a fair amount of time with Bapak Willem de Thouars - "Uncle Bill." I love him like family and respect him immensely. He has told me the same thing you're saying - and I'd bet dollars to donuts that Mr. Torres got it from Uncle, too. I'm not saying that Uncle is wrong on this point. But I don't know that it means that the actual art came from China - though Uncle may believe that. I think it's entirely possible that the words "pentjak silat" might have been derived from Chinese immigrants. Or maybe the words were already there and just happen to be similar. Or - and this is, IMO, the most likely scenario - both the Chinese and the Indonesian terms are derived from an older Indian/Hindu/Sanskrit term. Assuming that many or all of the Chinese arts came from Shaolin - which, in itself, is a pretty shaky assumption - then we have to remember that Bodidharma was an Indian who came to China and whipped the Shaolin monks into shape with exercises he'd learned while growing up as part of the warrior caste in India. Now take into account that the Majapahit empire encompassed pretty much all of the region where Silat is practiced and it's likely that it had some influence on Silat in general - though to say Silat started with the Majapahit empire is also a stretch but even if Silat predates the Majapahit it's almost guaranteed that Majapahit influenced the Silat and was part of what made Silat what it is today. Majapahit was a Hindu empire with roots back to India. So, was "pentjak silat" something from the Chinese immigrants? Personally, I find that unlikely since the Indonesians have never really warmed to the Indonesian immigrants in general. Or was "pentjak silat" derived from a Hindu phrase during Majapahit *and* the same Hindu phrase made it into the Chinese martial dialect from a related source. Mike
Lohan, This is just one THEORY and anyone who states it as fact is confused! There is no evidence to prove silat came from Si La Ti no matter how close they resemble or how good it sounds! There are those that believe it though. But for argument sake let's say the WORDS did originate from the Chinese language that still does not make Pencak Silat a derivative of any Chinese martial art. You need to do a little research yourself and you will find that the Indonesians have traced their fighting arts back further than the Chinese have! There were indigenous fighting arts in Indonesia long before the Indians, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese or anyone else came to the islands. As a matter of fact the term Pencak Silat is relatively new and was adopted around 1950, as a generic term for the Indonesian fighting arts just like Kung Fu is generic for Chinese arts and Karate is generic for Japanese arts. The Indonesians regained control of their country after WWll from the Dutch and that was when the term was adopted. The oldest of terms for Indonesian fighting arts are Silek & Pukulan and are still used and favored by some schools instead of Pencak Silat. One last note, there are Pencak Silat styles that look like Kung Fu and then there are Pencak Silat styles that look nothing like Kung Fu! Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Lohan, I don't know about Guru Rahardja but Robert Torres & Bill DeThours are KUNTAO stylist which is a Chinese derevitive art! They do have silat in their systems but they are primarily Chinese stylist so I'm not suprised that they would believe the Si La Te to Silat Theory! Those two are also not experts on the history of Pencak Silat nor have I ever heard of them spending years researching it either! There are however those who have proven their research and are considered authorities on the subject and they would be William Sanders, Guru Jim Ingram, Bapak Guru Besar A.D.Nelson and Oong Maryono to name a few! Check out this article The History Of Indonesia And Silat at http://www.ict-silat.com/history.htm Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
