Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by russell-NWFA, Sep 8, 2009.
Thank you for your thoughts kind sir.
So, in Qigong there are traditionally 5 areas of study one of which is martial qigong. So yes Tai Chi is Qigong. Albeit a specialised form of it.
tai chi chuan isn't qigong, because qigong is not tai chi chuan!!
Tai chi incorperates qigong principles in it's forms, and has qigongs as supplementary exercises in some of it's various martial systems.
The solo form does not equal tai chi chuan, and this is the problem. So many people today identify tcc with a solo form and little else if anything. Tai chi chuan is a martial system with components such as san shou, push hands, neigong, weapons and forms.
Qi gong is in there, but to say taiji is qigong is misleading.. it must be qualified properly. If all you do is taiji form like a qi gong and that is the only way you can or have been taught to practice your taiji, then sure all you are doing is qigong with the exterior of martial postures. There is however a depth in the martial practice of tai chi chuan that is so much more than this, and so much more pertinent to what tcc is. It's first and foremost a martial system, not qigong. It's not all slow exercise!
qigong is simply qigong, it doesn't need martial postures to be qigong. We can say other martial forms are qigong too because the qigong principles are so common in Chinese arts - hsingi, bagua etc. Where does that actually get us, and what does it mean? Once you know certain qigong principles they can be transfered to any movement.
So yes, whilst I'd agree that taiji form is a form of qigong on a cetain level, it's also a lot more than that - physically and mentally. And as well tcc as a martial system - which it most absolutely is, is so much more than a slow form, it's not even funny.
This is why, this attitude of taichi is qigong is really ultimately kind of silly and limiting. If you go to learn an authentic lineage system of tcc, you absolutely will not only be getting qi gong out of it, if you only learn qigong then it's just not tcc.
So many people now, don't really know or understand the difference it's very sad and quite a shameful situation.
Both qi gong and tcc are great practices, neither are done any justice by being conflated as one and the same things. People really should be better informed and think harder about it, before they go round talking unsubstantiated nonsense about it.
If you're only doing a mildly exercising long slow form focusing on the qigong elements - then you just simply ARE NOT DOING tai chi chuan. In exactly the same way someone doing boxercise is not learning or doing boxing. Tai chi chuan is boxing, NOT qigong!
The goals are different. Martial qigong, may be an area of both qigong and CMA, however you can't really say that such qigongs are martially specific to any style, neither are any synonymous with a style and neither are any specific styles synonymous with specific qigongs. These are used as supplementary or auxillary exercises in many cma systems. This is no basis whatsoever to support the incredibly weak claim that tai chi is qigong. The correct wording would be taichi has qigong.
TCC is a martial system like all the others. martial qigong are simply exercises found in such systems - notice the difference there ?
Tai chi form movement or static posture has as part of its principles some of the same principles as qigong does - deliberately. It probably shares many principles with loads of other disciplines too, completely by virtue of efficiency and efficacy and the sharing of some similar aims. Although not necessarily having to share the same ultimate goal.
Somewhat Agreeing with Cloudz
George, You have alot of good points. It is good to see your thoughts epressed again. Thanks again for threference material and the vids of your work. I learned alot form watching them. You are kinda a beast to workout with. You make me want to train very hard dude....
Of course there is a harmony to the two disciplines as you have kinda hinted to in your post. I think there is a distinction between the two disciplines; however, there is also common ground. A mature IMA System would find the two disciplines integral to a curriculum directed towards training adepts in the health and harm extremes of Internal Boxing. They both support each other when a person is working hard to build proprioception through Hard or Static posture. Stirring the Great Cauldron and Five Element Circulation techniques would serve one well in this type of standing meditation. Metta Meditation and pre-natal hand-washing would also be a good internal exercise to perform in Staic posture Qigong. Then when the elixer is ready a Silkreeling pattern performed between postures during transition would help small cosmic circulation if ones Kung Fu form has been subconsciously internalized and their seat sessions performing this exercise has been practiced a long time. All of these internal skill exercises performed in static posture and or dynamic silkreeling posture tend to put the goal of the practice in the health benefit schema.
However, the martial aspects of IMA require that we gain the power from aquiring states of mind and body that reflects stillness, motion and treasure. Wuji, Taijitu and the Three treasures of Jing, Qi and Shen gives us the superior health, strength, speed and clarity of perception to become peerless boxers. It is possible that this is the rudimentary difference in the neijia and waijia methods. If I bring this knowledge to my long form (108 steps), which i call the meditation form, I begin to understand the essence of the Four Elemental Phases or what we mostly call the concept of Greater and Lesser Yin and Yang. The stillness and motion extremes of my Qigong practice, because I mixed silkreeling transitions with static Martial postures manifests awareness of essence, refinment of energy and the concentration of spirit.
When I perform the Long Form I find that I have vitality to such an accumulation that containing motion in stillness or slow movement is like lidding up a simmering or boiling pot depending upon my breathing at the time. When I change breathing patterns through mental intention I explode or shake with energy. The Taiji aspect of the long form is supported by the qigong aspects of gathering lifeforce. Now the understanding of greater and lesser Yang makes sense: The exhaustion of strength or speed is weakness or slowness. The opposite is now also true and the linear discharge of circular accumulation concerning vitality is not only a practiced concept of form but an example of internal skill demonsrtrated through external martial prowess.
I know you all know the alchemy sequences that I am discussing and I am sorry if I the tone sounds erudite but I had no other way to explain my understanding. Here is a small example of what I am talking about:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNeP6P6bcYo"]Hu Shui Quan Qigong Taolu: The Foundational Form‏ - YouTube[/ame]
Here is another example of a Breathwork regimen....
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP0-eMTg_Jc"]Wuwater Tigerboxing: Prenatal Breath, Posture & Transition Regimen - YouTube[/ame]
Question; What is Qigong?
Answer: The forever in time discussion of the martial art (and Star Wars) existence of something quite often debated
Very good article, that's why i respect Chinese culture and tradition.They are respectul and have honor in what they do and in the same time they push their body to limit being able tyo use Qigong,impressive.I would like to learn this in the future.
QiGong is the Asian method of conditioning that promotes Health in the HUman Body commonly characterized as "good Qi flow" within the context of Chinese Medicine. I use "Eight Pieces of Brocade" quite often, but if I lifted weights, ran a couple of miles each day, ate well, or any of a dozen other things that encouraged Health, the TCM people would still say I had "good Qi flow". FWIW.
Yeah..and then there are those whom can "feel another's flow"
I feel ya....
Agreed, but who do they have to blame? How many people actually research what they are invested in? Further, how many people, when they ask an intelligent question, catch a raft of stuff, so they shut-up and just make things up for themselves?
My own personal impression is that far too many people use things like MA and TCM to garner some sort of regard from others that those people were too damn lazy to work for through legit means. Think about it for a second...... sure I can go to Med school for 8 years and do my Residency...but why? How about I just go and take a Mail Order class and get a certificate and now I can tell everyone that I am able to control some arcane power, right?
The reason we can't have intelligent discussions about this stuff is that people would rather believe what they want to believe than actually investigate the facts.
Just the way people are....
Ignorance is Bliss....there are a lot of "happy" people out there
Yeah....amazing how many of them are associated with MA one way or another.
In traditional Chinese culture, qì (also chi or ch'i) is an active principle forming part of any living thing. Qi is frequently translated as "life energy", "life force", or "energy flow".
Qi is the central underlying principle in traditional Chinese medicine and martial arts. The literal translation of "qi" is "breath", "air", or "gas".
Concepts similar to qi can be found in many cultures, for example, prana in Vedantic philosophy, mana in Hawaiian culture, lüng in Tibetan Buddhism, and Vital energy in Western philosophy. Some elements of qi can be understood in the term energy when used by writers and practitioners of various esoteric forms of spirituality and alternative medicine. Notions in the West of energeia, élan vital, or "vitalism" are purported to be similar.
A qi field (chu-chong) refers to the cultivation of an energy field by a group, typically for healing or other benevolent purposes. A qi field is believed to be produced by visualization and affirmation, and is an important component of Wisdom Healing Qigong (Zhineng Qigong), founded by Grandmaster Ming Pang.
Qìgōng is a practice involving coordinated breathing, movement, and awareness, traditionally viewed as a practice to cultivate and balance qi. With roots in traditional Chinese medicine, philosophy, and martial arts, qigong is now practiced worldwide for exercise, healing, meditation, and training for martial arts. Typically a qigong practice involves rhythmic breathing coordinated with slow stylized movement, a calm mindful state, and visualization of guiding qi.
Qi is a didactic concept in many Chinese, Korean and Japanese martial arts. Martial qigong is a feature of both internal and external training systems in China, and other East Asian cultures. The most notable of the qi-focused "internal" force (jin) martial arts are Baguazhang, Xing Yi Quan, Tai Chi Chuan, Kung Fu, Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Kyūdō, Hapkido, jian and katana swordplay, Luohan Quan, Liu He Ba Fa, Buddhist Style, and some forms of Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Silat.
Demonstrations of qi are popular in some martial arts and may include the immovable body, the unraisable body, the unbendable arm and other feats of power. All, or some, of these feats can alternatively be explained using biomechanics and physics.
Therefore, demonstrations of qi, still cannot produce or confirm
I see you haven't learned not to post great globs of text from other sites without credit have you Dirtymeat?
Copying and pasting wikipedia is not proving much is it?
That was copy and pasted about three weeks ago.He just got back a couple days ago from The Holy Sin Bin for such antics.
I think he's been refraining from such practices now.
And, as such, we should give him benefit of the doubt and move on from the issue.
That was totally mea culpa - I saw 47MM and the reply above and mixed teh dates
Apologies Dirtymeat, J'accuse faussement
Separate names with a comma.