Actually history of science was one of the courses I enjoyed most in University. And yes, Science rejects things it has no evidence for. Once evidence is found and verified it is accepted. Religion can't do that. The evidence is there, there is no more. The bible can't be updated, it is the word of God, it can not be revised based on new evidence.
Oh, and for the record, traditional acupuncture theory and modern science explain why it works rather differently. If I tell you I have a device that keeps time, it does so because little invisible gremlins live inside of it and keep changing it as time passes you'll reject it. If I tell you I got a battery powered digital clock you'll accept it.
Science is not a belief system, it is a theory of experimentation. Basically, anything you believe is a hypothesis which can be proven or disproven at any point, but things which are consistantly proven over time are used to build more hypotheses from. The moment something is disproved, real scientific practice is to change your thinking/hypotheses to accomodate. Although that often doesn't work in real life, this is due to prejudice, politics and human rejection of change - not a failure of the scientific system. If you don't base your thinking on evidence and demonstrable fact, how can you say that your theory of chi is any more valid than the idea there are invisible gremlins? Religious thought is fundamentally based on "faith", which is the conscious rejection of observable evidence to maintain existing beliefs. Which is more resistant to change?!
Just a handful of human functions that western science cannot quantify, measure and prove: Thoughts Dreams Behavior Speech So, it sounds like these items don't exist. In regards to acupuncture, AG. it has been proven to be effective by Western scientists many times, and believe it or not, TCM and acupuncture are based on a theory of qi. Why does it work? The problem here is that many folks are not willing to accept that there is a connection between our mind and body. Bio-feedback training is a good western example of that. Qi is a subject that requires you to eliminate your reliance on a largely Christian view of the mind-body interaction-- that is, the two are epiphenomenal to each other. Qi is an experiential process that you, or anybody can work on, and benefit from. If you think that it is what you have seen in movies about it, you are wrong. Nobody is shooting energy balls in here. Has it ever occured to you fellas that there is a whole world out there of stuff you have never tried, and *gasp* maybe don't understand? People who bullishly rant that their is no qi instantly prove to me that they don't understand what it is. Anyway, us qi folk shouldn't be flamebait in our own room, should we? Totality-- try coming up with some kind of an informed argument before you come in guns ablazing-- you'll look like an intelligent adult that way, and not a fifteen year old troll.
my first argument was an informed and intelligent. you can't refute it, because there is no way to prove the existence of chi. you base your opinion on belief, i base mine on fact. not there's anything wrong with that, i simply don't agree with you. i don't imagine i'll ever convince you otherwise, and until you have evidence, you won't do the convince me. the only reason i posted in this thread is because you called us "bullish conservatives." we're willing to change our opinions, IF you can provide evidence. i think that makes you a little more conservative than us, don't you think?
I never said it hadn't. What I said was the traditional explanation of why it works has not been accepted. My clock still works even if I explain it in terms of Gremlins with flash cards doesn't it? Does that prove the existence of the gremlins?
is chi not a word meaning energy does energy not exist ? do humans not run on internal energy? anyways as to proving chi i would say go to a tai chi seminar given by YZM the first thing he does is take out a big board and write down physics fourmulas to help you understand chi me not being a physics student cant completely understand them so it would be nice if anybody who has a knowledge in physics to go one of these seminars write some things downand get back to me as i dont have a degree. worth a shot this might slow down new qi threads that keep poping up all over the place if science is so great what is the sound of one hand clapping (runs off into the distance to hide)
Maybe we should all refer back to prior threads on this, and realize that nobody's going to convince anyone else of anything here. I'll tell you what you all can do with my qi-balls. :Alien:
Coming from a Martial Arts standpoint chi is real. coming from a science standpoint the hypothesis of the existince of chi is yet to be disproven
There are many effects. The most commonly known one is anaesthesia or pain relief. In China, it is possible to do full brain surgery, the patient is conscious and still speaking, and not given any anaesthetic. Only specific acupuncture points are stimulated. Like I said, this is only but one demonstratable effect of accupuncture. You need to research the rest yourself.
Burdon of proof is on the other side. Proving it does not exist is impossible. Prove that gremlins don't live inside my watch. You can't do it, it is impossible to prove that.
There are many things you can prove. But the non-existence of a non-detectable entity is not one of them. You can prove things through deductive reasoning, inductive reasoning, scientific method. Proving something, depending on how you use the word, does not always guarantee the truth. Some methods are more reliable then others.
Perhaps the Internal Martial Arts forum should be renamed the Dogmatist Forum Where's Syd when you need him.
I quit too. From now on I'll be only posting about meaningful things without falling into the trap of Religion. Religion is a dangerous thing. I'm not religious, only philosophical (BTW, I don't believe in God, who cares, we have eternity to discover IT). Religion, can lead you to become fanatical and blind to the ultimate truth: simplicity and :love: Gerard.
Actually, the main thing that you chappies seem to have difficulty proving is a negative. Then again, that's impossible so my expectations were never that high. Read this. Oh, and i do believe in chi. Just not in any sense that implies it is a physical quantity that can be channeled to produce abilities in excess of what my body and mind are capable.
See, I think that is the main problem-- I don't think that anyone who actually practices qigong would make that claim; that is, qi can make you somehow more than human. That is a misconception that popular culture has latched onto, and it has retarded the progress of a very beneficial system of body awareness, health, and even spirituality if you want to take it there.
I think that's exactly the problem- this is a claim regularly made by bigoted people who believe eastern cultures have the answers to life's problems that we don't. This has absolutely retarded the progress of something that could be useful to us...
