What is 'Qi', to those who believe.

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by ZillaBilla, Aug 13, 2004.

  1. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    yeah hadn't though of that
     
  2. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hey Fatsan,

    I don’t think the guy is using internal concepts to break that brick. I think if he was, firstly he would not be so tense, in the pic he looks like he's about to drop a load. Secondly, to use the abdominal cavity to perform such an act, one would time a 'reverse breath' with the impact, this would make him look like he's bloating his abdomen. Which is in essence what he would do, but bloat it with 'Qi'. I've had broom sticks smashed over my 'Tan Tien' (abdomen, sort of), and its pretty effortless, as all you do, as mentioned is a type of breath, and all you feel is your 'Qi', not the impact.


    Hey Bear,

    Indeed there are dangers, but like I say there are also very precise guidelines, so it can be done correctly. But further to the explanation I gave you, I thought about it a bit longer and came up with a lengthier one. Here it is.

    What is Qi? (again, like I said, it can be explained in a multitude of ways)

    ‘Qi’ is the essence inherent in all exchanges of energy that correspond in their progression to the movements depicted in the ‘Tai Chi’ (Yin/Yang) diagram. Thus, it may be applied to any phenomenon, as to my perception all phenomenon correspond in their progress to the ‘Tai Chi’. Hence, it can be said that ‘Qi’ is in everything, but not for everyone. In other words, ‘Qi’ is a matter of perspective/perception, yet it is also tangible, in the sense that one can experience it. However, ‘Qi’ can be explained in a multitude of ways, yet it is always true to its nature and always changing, thus, always just out of grasp in intellectual terms. The explanations used to describe ‘Qi’ are effective to a degree, yet depend on how it is perceived and in what context. Due to this, in order to understand ‘Qi’, one must experience it directly, as ‘Qi’ will always be ‘Qi’, regardless of what and how many explanations or characteristics are ascribed to it. It is that, which lies bellow, above, and in everything, yet remains inexplicable.
     
  3. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    Most of the aknowledged demo's of chi of the sort in the picture seem to involve people using tension. I appreciate that it can be done relaxed as i have done this with full punches to the solar plexus. By the way, im the guy in the photo. Got to admit that I do look tense, but then the guy is whacking me as hard as he can :eek: . The higher you go the less you need to rely on muscle tension but form my experience, in the above situation you got to give it a bit of muscle :D But maybe thats my failing :cry:
     
  4. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hey Fatsan,

    Yeah, I used to do an EMA, that used some hard 'Qi Gong', that was very good for taking all sort of hits, and I must say I still have the reflex for it, thus tend to tense up sometimes due to habit. But the internal stuff, like doing the reverse breath is all connected with the lower 'Tan Tien' 'Qi'. In other words, on impact the 'Qi' expands, or you expand it, to fill the abdominal cavity and most of the torso (depending on your level), so it makes you look like a fat person with a big gut, but its just the 'Qi' inside. Anyhow, personally I think that the lower 'Tan Tien' should be the first thing that needs to be developed for IMA's and 'Qi Gong' , and with that you can absorb hits using the 'Qi' in the 'Tan Tien', as well as vast other benefits for focus and health. If you’re interested, let me know I'll send you some good exercises for developing the 'Tan Tien'. Next time you try the brick braking, you may want to wrap the brick in a cloth, the sharp edges can cut pretty well. Cheers.
     
  5. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    I havent done that training for a few years - I think both the hard and soft practices end up at the same place in training they just take different routes. At higher levels there is no need to prepare and can be tested when not expecting it or blind folded - at this level the training is within the instinct and not controled conscioulsy as such. Also when it comes to punching iron ect there is no physical conditioning other than knuckle pressups - Delivery is maintaind through the breath and mind. Im off to hong kong soone for a couple of months and will have time on my hands to do some extra stuff - anything you could proved would be appretiated. If you want I can go over some of our exercises.
     
  6. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    That’s wicket mate. If you down in HK, I bet you could find some high level IMA practitioners, and if you lucky train with some. I agree with you on the Iron stuff, but would have to add that the internal stuff conditions your internal organs as well. Thus even if you don’t react by expanding your Qi, your insides are still protected. Also because of that, the incoming force can be absorbed by reversing the action of the repulsion (opposite of' a reverse breath), just as you would do with your hands in 'push hands'. So you end up with two options on how to take the hit, either repulse or absorb. But the later requires allot more training. Anyhow, I would be interested in knowing what kind of breath training you use. The stuff I learned, requires normal abdominal breathing in most circumstances, and at higher levels, reverse (abdominal) breathing for emitting 'jing'. Cheers.
     
  7. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    I'm mainly going out there to train at the Ip Chun Wing Chun School. Theres also a Chinese lion dance team near where I'm staying so will be working on that as well. The breathing exercises are simple rhythmic breathing through the nose - As they progress you start working on the various parts of the body - They begins as controled muscle contractions and as the excersises get harder the need to control the delivery becomes greater and there are excersises which challenge and strengthen the ability to maintain that delivery - through regular training there becomes no need for the muscle contraction and delivery can be maitained by the breath and concentration.
     
  8. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    That is quite interesting, never really knew how that worked, I don’t fully understand it, but it seems partly similar to 'Tai Chi', approach, in the sense that movement and breath are coordinated, except, well the way I train my 'Tai Chi' is coordinating intent with breath and movement. Though I would think intent comes in to play with your training too, but with ours its specifically to move the 'Qi', which will lead all the other co ordinations. Thus 'Yi' (intent) leads 'Qi' which is coordinated with movement and breath, though subconsciously or habitually, so to speak. Is 'Wing Chun' your primary martial art?
     
  9. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    Ours does deal with using the mind, breath and body together and is of indonesian origin. It does use intent but i think it differs based on the tai chi i have done. The concentration is called one direction and it requires the focus of the mind totally on the moment - while this is apart of chinese IMA, you seem to use a lot more visualisation as well. I did the indonesian one, kateda, for about 3.5 years and though it is was purley self defence based it has formed the foundation for everything else i've doen since. Been doing wing chun now for about 3.5 to 4 years - have done other arts as well but in terms of martial art i fall into winghun more than any of the others.
     
  10. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Cheers Fatsan,

    I've actually been thinking about starting an Indonesian IMA, called 'Walisongo Pencak Silat' from http://www.eastweststudios.com , though I don't know how that would affect my Tai Chi, but I guess it cant be bad. Any thoughts on mixing the two?
     
  11. FATSAN

    FATSAN Valued Member

    Don't know much about silat but from what i've seen its nature is quite different from the chinese styles. I think if you can let go of what you've done in tai chi and look at accept it from the position of a complete beginer you will in time find similarities between them - but it will affect your tai chi. From a pure tai chi position it may be regarded as a negative effect. In terms of your delvelopment as a martial artist and individual it may be positive it depends what you want form your training. You need to constatly be evaluationg where your at, where your going and how this matches your goals in training.
     
  12. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Cheers Fatsan.
     
  13. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hello all, I have written a new essay on experiencing 'Qi', sort off. Please have a read if you can be bothered and let me know what you think, criticism welcome.

    Cheers to all, here it goes.

    Experiencing the ‘Tao’ and ‘Qi’.

    We stand in front of a waterfall, when we observe it, we know what it is, it’s a waterfall. If you think about a waterfall, the ‘waterfall’ comes to mind.

    When we observe/feel the waterfall, its name is irrelevant. We don’t feel its name, we feel its being/existence/process. We don’t see ‘waterfall’. We see surging, twirling, glistening waves and white foam, roaring sound, lights playing in the water. It is like a simple yet complex, random yet patterned ballet. When we ignore what we know of it, we can observe/feel it in all its magnitude. Instead of admiring the fact that we are in front of what we know as a ‘waterfall’.

    This is the difference between thinking and feeling. Thus, in order to understand and see the whole picture we must feel, and forget what we know. Just observe and feel. Thinking, can narrow the mind perception to a single name/word. The name is just a word and not the reality of the experience. Even though the name may remind us of an experience, it is not the same as the experience, it is a mere echo, and if our imagination is over active in perceiving the word, then we stray from reality. Hence to perceive/feel the waterfall is reality, whereas to think of it, is not.

    The ‘Tao’ and ‘Qi’ are like the waterfall. We can name it and describe it in words, but to do so would be to admire it and not experience it. True knowledge/understanding comes from experience. Subjective/bias knowledge/understanding comes from thoughts and imagination. One is free to think and imagine anything, thus free to be subjective. Though, one has the opportunity to observe/perceive without though imagination getting in the way of perception, thus making it objective, or in other words reality. However both paths are open, objective thought and experience are possible just as subjective thought and experience are possible. However, to think objectively one must first observe objectively, to learn the ‘true’ nature of things, internally and externally. But, it is easier to think and observe subjectively, due to the boundless nature of the mind, and the general condition of human experience (I think this line can be expressed better).

    Conclusively, to be able to be objective, one must study natures patterns. Natures patterns correspond to the ‘Tai Chi’ symbol (Yin/Yang diagram). Thus, one must observe ‘Tai Chi’ within and without, to perceive its true meaning, then ones nature can become objective, as nature itself is. The classics refer to the primordial and temporal minds. The primordial being the pure, objective, and its opposite being the temporal, which is subjective, conditioned.

    Thanks again.

    ZB
     
  14. Gyaku

    Gyaku Valued Member

    Hmm, I've also been interested in checking it out. Have you actually visited them - are they any good?
     
  15. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hey Gyaku,

    Na, I have not checked them out, might do so in October. The way I came across the school was that I read about one of the instructors there (maybe he’s the founder), in a book called 'Esoteric Warriors' by Alex Kozma. Don’t really know much about the author, but he was quite praiseful about the specific instructor, and it sounded interesting, or even a bit bizarre for that matter. So I figured it may be interesting checking it out. Though, if you gonna check it out sometime soon, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on it.
     
  16. Smee

    Smee Evil kung fu genius

    The instructor from eastwest studios (name escapes me for the moment) is featured a lot in MA Illustrated Magazine. He seems very highly regarded - although that mag is a bit of a love in between bezzie mates......

    He appears to have been an inner student of a silat style and seems pretty focused on the spiritual aspects. In the articles he comes comes across as a person who is genuinely interested in bettering people (i.e making them better - not beating them).

    I reckon he would be worth a look.

    Paul
     

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