What is Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Force, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    And let's not forget, there are some of us in the Italian restaurant who can't stand eating Fettuccine Alfredo for more than, say, twenty seconds without throwing up (myself being one of them, both literally and - somewhat - figuratively). But that's all right, because the Arrabbiata is friggin' delicious too.
     
  2. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Although I enjoyed the stretched metaphor I think your overstating the horrors that are faced by members of the Ninjutsu forum. Yes there are annoying aspects of people commenting from outside the art, that happens in many forums, there are also potentially useful aspects. If you only focus on the annoying, as you frequently seem to, all it's going to lead to is getting irritated. Unless you enjoy getting irritated it might be idea to try and not focus on such comments so much.
     
  3. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    This is a sincere - honest question:

    What do you think is a useful aspect from an outsider that both:

    A. I don't already know.
    B. I haven't already heard.

    I swear - in the past month - there hasn't been a single thing said by anyone from the outside that even made me *pause* - let alone consider - *useful*.

    Let me be a bit more direct - if I have a legitimate question about - say - MMA - I am not likely to look here for the answer. Or Grappling. Or *fill in the blank*.

    Honestly - do you see what I am talking about?

    -Daniel

    PS. To be more clear in my thoughts - I don't mind outsider conversation. If they had legitimate questions about what we do or why we do them - I am happy to answer. When all we are getting is "that is teh sux - it doesn't look at all like the UFC" -- that isn't a conversation. That is the game of Jeopardy - where we start with an answer (MMA is the only real Martial art) - and work backwards trying to find the right question...

    Annoying... not useful or helpful.

    Don't believe me? Show up at church and interrupt every conversation there with "there is no God - video or it didn't happen". I mean EVERY conversation. See how long your welcome lasts.

    Unless that is the church of MAP. In which case - you are welcome to crap on our threads as often as you like...
     
  4. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Nail.On.Head.
     
  5. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    What Hissatsu and I are trying to say (and we will keep coming up with culinary and linguistic analogies until we are as blue in the face as smurfs) is that it seems impossible to talk ninjutsu/taijutsu with other people who practice ninjutsu/taijutsu without constantly facing demands by people from other arts to translate ours into the language of theirs in order that they may understand it, even though most of the time we don't speak their language, only our own.

    Nobody seems to make the effort to try to understand or appreciate our art in its own context, but you don't find us doing the same in other sections. I am reminded of new work colleagues who never learn the job because they are always harping on about what they did elsewhere and how great they and their previous company were.

    You have to let go of what you thought you knew and immerse yourself thoroughly in a new art and wipe clean any preconceptions before you walk through the door, which people seem to find extremely difficult on internet forums. As I said before, hardly anyone who is good at out art posts in youtube. If people have such a problem with a youtube clip, hello, but there is a facility on youtube to comment there. Don't come and whinge to us about it, because we didn't post the crap, and cannot and should not neet to make excuses for those who do. And even when someone like Adam posts a decent clip of what is obviously kata training, he gets the usual rude and ignorant demands for his art to be translated to the lowest common denominator for armchair appraisal.

    And having to constantly justify ourselves for existing because sparring and competing is not the primary focus and end product of our training gets very trying after a while.

    Yes you are doing a good job of moderating (because nobody has left yet because of you) but if you as a Mod keep coming in with only the experience of Mexican and expecting us to provide you with a Mexican solution when we are only here in the Italian section to talk and eat Italian it just encourages more Mexican enthusiasts to keep coming and demanding Mexican food.

    If this were being played out for real, and the local sherriff (you) and local Mexican fans eventually made it unbearable for Italian cuisine afficionados, the proprietor would have no option but to give up on the Italian food and just sell Mexican just to stay in business, and those who wanted Italian would just have to go *elsewhere*.

    It appears that a particular *elsewhere* is under new management and awaiting its grand reopening, so you just have to ask yourself, do you still want the Italians to come and eat here or not? Especially when they have the Italian restaurant they wanted all along and which promises never to sell Mexican food.

    And if you don't care if people stay or go, then you are saying you don't care about your members. No baby, no bathwater, just a change of diaper when one is full of something unpleasant.
     
  6. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Hissatsu> It's the legitimate questions and discussions I am defending not unnecessary comments about the UFC. But I still don't find the situation is nearly as bad as you protest though. Yes you may get one or two people who make comments/threads that you don't like but it's hardly as if you can't get a word in edgeways. I've personally found so far that conversation is interrupted much more commonly by long complaints about what may happen or what has happened in the past rather than by people discussing the UFC.

    Take connovar in the other thread, he hasn't ruined it, he's made decent comments as well as one or two silly ones. After the silly ones other members pointed out they were silly and the discussion moved on and after the decent ones people either agreed or disagreed depending on their POV.

    I really don't see a massive issue that is destroying the forum there and I also think in that thread I did agree that Connovar was being a bit silly in his cheeky response asking for youtube evidence when there was a sincere offer to visit. There wasn't really much need to do anything about it apart from point that out though.

    Arashima> I can see where you're coming from and I think to a certain extent you are right in that people tend to approach any MA they are unfamiliar with based on their own background. I also recognise that there is a tendency for 'aliveness' and other such terms to be flung around as if everyone should use them. However, I also think that certain Ninjutsu practitioners are somewhat reluctant to acknowledge that Ninjutsu training IS in many aspects comparable to general MA training. I remember from the previous discussion on sparring that it took much longer than it should have to get to the point where people recognised that they did 'spar' if by spar I meant try and perform techniques against 'a decent level of resistance from an opponent who is avoiding/attacking in no predetermined manner'. When people started describing the relevant drills it didn't sound alien to me but it did take quite a lot of discussion to get to that point because originally people kept hoping in and dismissing the discussion as worthless and me for being a troll!

    Anyway, as regards the grand reopening of the forum-that-will-remain-nameless ;). To be honest, I'm not too concerned. It's up to individual prefences as to what suits you best and maybe some folk are much better suited and would be much happier in a Ninjutsu practitioners only forum. If that's the case, then that's fine with me. MAP will still be around and I remain optimistic that there are enough Ninjustu folks interested in MAP to keep the forum going fine. Folks are also welcome to use both though I would ask that if people don't intend to contribute to discussions on MAP that it would be nice if they didn't just come on to complain. Of course I can't stop anyone from doing that but it does seem to be a bit of a waste of time.

    I do care about the members here and I do care about the forum not being overrun by trolls but I'm not a recruiting agent for MAP. I'll keep the Ninjutsu forum here as troll and insult free as I can and I'll do my best to prevent discussions going south but I can't force good discussions and posts to appear but then again I do think there are folks on here already who post sensibly and constructively. I don't really see it as a barren wasteland, like some people seem to, though perhaps thats due to modding the religions forum previously :D.

    Anyway, in summary I'm aiming to make this place as Italian friendly as it can be without putting up posters saying Mexicans out. I may agree with Mexicans occasionally and even share their MA at times but I've met many a Mexican I can't stand (Flashlock for instance) and if a Mexican comes in just to cause trouble they will be kicked out. That's all I can say really!
     
  7. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    And your ability to comment on this stems from what experience?
     
  8. Dark Shadow

    Dark Shadow Valued Member

    Thats life? Taken from you TOS:

    4.5 Trolling/ Inciting Conflict:
    "Trolling" or making posts with the intention of creating problems on the forums is obviously against the forum guidelines.
    4.5.1 This includes registering an alternative ID for the sole purpose of creating problems on the forums. "Troll ID's" will be locked immediately and permanently, and the primary account holder may be banned.
    4.5.2 Members that visit MAP only to participate in "conflict" threads or who incite others on other forums and websites to do so are not welcome here and their account may be temporarily suspended or permanently removed.

    It certainly doesn't take much thought for someone to read those rules, and then read some of the posts in this section, to see that these rules are being ignored, and the people ignoring them are being ignored by the mods.

    You're right though, a converstaion can go on, even with those 'trollish' posts in the mix, yet one still has to wonder why they have to be there in the first place. How many times does one person or a group of people have to repeat themselves like a broken record? It also makes one wonder why people worry so much about what other arts do. Who the hell cares if X art spars or not. Who cares if this or that? Maybe, just maybe, people should worry about what THEY are doing, instead of worrying so much about what others are doing, especially if said person has NO interest in said art to begin with.

    Oh and as for that other thread, the one about the video clips...amitchell postd those clips and if you notice, some of the early comments revovled around sparring, yet the thread itself, as some people pointed out, had nothing to do with sparring in the first place. If that isnt trolling, if people can't see that, well, I don't know what to tell you.
     
  9. Dark Shadow

    Dark Shadow Valued Member

    You're kidding right? If something annoying keeps happening over and over and over again, especially if its in violation of the TOS, why isn't anything being done?

    Take a good look...do you see anyone from this section going to the MMA section and crapping on their threads? I wonder how someone from an art outside of BJJ/MMA would be treated if they were to go over and start crapping on MMA and BJJ. Because we all know that BJJ has its own faults as well.
     
  10. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Where in particular? If you think a post is over the line and only designed to cause conflict then press the report post function. I can honestly say that since my time here I have seen much more accusations of trolling than I have noted trolling behaviour.

    I agree with you. If people have no interest in Ninjutsu and are only here to cause trouble then they are not welcome. Members who are not Ninjutsu practitioners and post sensibly are welcome even if they have opinions with which the majority of Ninjutsu practitioners disagree. That is what I meant by- that's life... you wont always see eye to eye but it doesn't mean the other person is a troll intent on havoc. They could just be expressing their opinion with the intention to discuss things rather than run amok.

    I do notice and I don't see any trolls making such comments. The closest trolling comment I can see is connovar asking for youtube videos of sparring and then dismissing out of hand what seemed like a sincere invitation to come and visit a class and take a look with an insulting comment. And if you'll notice I commented on that. I don't consider the other suggestions that it would be interesting to see sparring videos to be trolling.

    Report the posts. If it's against the TOS then they and the person making them will be dealt with.

    I suspect it would depend on how they phrased their arguments. I think in general you'd be shrugged off if you were making irrelevant comments.

    Anyhow look I agree if someone does what flashlock did before i.e. bring up aliveness and generic critiques of Ninjutsu in every thread regardless of topic I do consider that trolling. I haven't seen that occuring lately. To give a tangible example if connovar was to turn up in every thread asking for sparring videos then yes he is trolling, if he asks for a sparring video once and then engages in a long discussion about the actual video on display, then nope in my books he isn't trolling.
     
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It might be useful for the outsider, not you.

    I'm not being a smartarse.

    I'm posting from the loooooooooooooooooooong experience of the TKD board where we get, "Hey! Why don't those Olympic TKD guys keep their hands up?" on a fairly regular basis.

    That isn't even my style of TKD, but it's still part of educating the masses to try and make them think: "Do you know, those Olympic Level athletes, whose training makes my thrice a week in MMA/MT/Judo/anything short of professional boxing training look like Nursery PE, they may actually have the vaguest idea of what they're talking about!"

    Maybe part of the job of the Ninjutsu board is to educate outsiders.

    That doesn't mean put up with trolls.

    It does mean that the board does not solely exist for its established members.

    Mitch
     
  12. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    Thanks for seeing where I am coming from. Martial arts should encourage open-mindedness and a willingness to explore new horizons and be creative. Not force values on others or square pegs into round holes.

    Therefore it is amusing that it is the Bujinkan that gets accused of being a cult, when we proclaim nothing and don't insist that any other martial arts do things 'our' way. We're not the brainwashed ones, we are more likely to be watching the gladiators from the stands, not in the arena being eaten by lions.

    I know what you are saying but see my previous comments about common ground. If I want to celebrate what we all have in common I will go to a more general section of MAP. In this section I wish to celebrate what is different about ninjutsu. And it is difficult to discuss the intricacies of the Gyokko Ryu Jo Ryaku No Maki whilst fending off the aliveness brigade, although I am willing to try. People are free to post wherever they like but there was no room in the video thread for the comments posted and it prevented a decent discussion on Takamatsuden Hanbojutsu and ended up being about dodging and weaving like a boxer whilst waving clubs and killing foreign chaps in their own backyard with knives.

    As I said, I lurked here for a long time and on MAP far more than any other forum, all that needs to be said about taijutsu practitioners sparring or not sparring has been said a million times, up to the point where 10,000 fights to the death between us and 'them' would need to be subject to statistical analysis to determine who is actually right. It has gone beyond conversation.

    Therefore I believe that there is a facility known as a Sticky in which our general case could be put once and for all and every time it comes up, the poster is referred to the Sticky and their post deleted to save clogging up a thread in which sparring is not the intended topic of the OP.

    Or split the Ninjutsu Section into a Ninjas Who Spar and a Ninjas Who Don't section and no aliveness questions to be asked in the latter.

    All those in favour?

    I'm glad you are being cool about this, it speaks volumes. I certainly don't plan to burn my bridges (unless they get burned for me) and would like to be able to post on both forums, and several others out there if I feel the need. I also support your suggestion that people don't use MAP as a soapbox for moaning about MAP and should post positively as often as possible.


    I know you care but you put this badly. It shouldn't need to be Italian Friendly if it is the Italian Section of the forum, it should be Italian Law!

    And it is the Mexicans who should try to remember when they are in Italy and the onus of friendliness on a basis of When in Rome (which is in Italy).

    I am ashamed of my fellow Britons who travel to the Mediterranean and deem all the local food 'foreign muck' and insist on egg and chips everywhere they go, and drink in English-themed bars rather than authentic premises.

    If you want to get the best out of your visit to Italy, learn enough Italian to ask what you need, and don't upset the mafioso!
     
  13. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    I'm only replying to this because you came here, but the British girl Sarah Stevenson, who did damned well despite her abysmal treatment by the Chinese, stated openly that she knew nothing about fighting or self defence and trained only for competitions that follow the rules of Olympic Taekwondo. So yes she may know what she is talking about in terms of her specific training and its sports application, but no more than that, and she said so herself!

    I don't think she makes our MMA/MT/Judo/Ninjutsu look like nursery PE at all, but I wouldn't want to fight her under the confines of her rules. Mike Tyson and Tito Ortiz said they would never fight each other for the same reason

    We're fine with that, but the same question a million times gets a bit much. This is why I suggested a sticky.

    Unfortunately trolls do not always announce themselves. And some teenagers with poor communications skills can be mistaken for trolls, plus some trouble makers know how to brew trouble slowly so that many posts get out there before they are stopped.

    There don't seem to be many 'established members' in this section. It seems to be an old generation who get disillusioned and leave and then replaced by another and the cycle repeats endlessly. I tried jumping back a year at a time and I didn't recognise hardly anyone from one year to the next. They seem to have either been banned for reasons which cannot be seen in the threads where they last posted, or just left.
     
  14. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    lol... it comes from the experience of discussing things with Ninjutsu practitioners in the past as I outlined in my previous post. Martial arts vary but it's very odd to find a martial art that doesn't have drills, sweeps, locks, punches, kicks etc. and yes other aspects like tactics or mindsets may be emphasised but still... there is enough similarity that it isn't impossible to discuss things productively with other martial artists.
     
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I basically agree with most everything you said Arashima and only have a few replies to offer.

    I get were you are coming from and you make a fair point. As a result I will attempt to make a bit more of an effort to prevent folks from dragging threads off topic with endless discussions of aliveness/sparring/etc. I'm not going to ban such discussions because it's not my style but I will do my best and be a bit more vigilant to make sure that good discussions aren't interrupted unnecessarily by such issues. (Remember the report post function or PM's because I can't see everything!)

    Believe me after 5 years I know what you're saying- I think for instance I've heard every possible variation of the street vs. sport debate imaginable in my time here. Yet at the same time I think like TKDMitch points out that is an unavoidable feature of discussion boards where new people come in, new styles become popular and so on. It's impossible to avoid such discussions but it isn't always as bad as people think.

    I remember for instance when I discussed sparring here, first I took part in a tangent in a thread and then after annoying some people I made a new thread to discuss sparring as suggested. Before doing this I read ALL the threads on sparring to see if I was repeating what others had said and not only was I not but there also was a lot less actual discussion than I had been lead to believe. I then found that upon creating the thread despite adding in lots of disclaimers and warning people away I received a few good responses and then lots of people complaining about the thread and me for making it. Eventually I got back to the discussion and got some rewarding information but it's only because I'm persistent and because some of the mods came in and warned members to stop ruining the thread and/or accusing me of being a troll!

    I might make a sticky about sparring with the most useful previous discussions there but I can't ban folks from raising the issue in general (though I will make sure they start a new thread if they want to discuss it as the main topic of an otherwise unrelated thread).

    I appreciate these comments and I hope others take the same attitude!
     
  16. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I dunno, I would assume it comes from watching that happen on a daily basis. Now whether it actually does have those parallels is debatable, but in order to debate it, you'd have to outline your training, since it seems whenever there's criticism leveled at our arts, we have a slew of people saying "Well that's not US, that's THEM." I know, because I am one of those people a lot of the time. It doesn't make it any less true, but simply saying "Ninjutsu isn't like that" is just as silly and argumentative as "Ninjutsu is like that" Both are generalizations that ignore half of the evidence simply for the sake of getting the last "Nuh uh!" in. The fact is that for a lot of practitioners, he's absolutely right. This previous sentence applies to almost all of the criticisms that are sent towards our art. That's why people make those criticisms. Now for "TRUE NINJITSU" whatever that happens to be to you, maybe he's totally wrong. You'll have to forgive us for not intimately knowing your take on an practice that is completely defined by it's intangibles. Either way, there are plenty of people that don't live up to your or my standards, or anyone else's for that matter, but they do exist, and they do influence the face of the organization(s) in question.
     
  17. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Excuse me, what are you talking about???
     
  18. Hissatsu

    Hissatsu End of the Road: Moved On

    Please call me Daniel. I am more than willing to put my name behind what I write out here...

    :)

    Another serious question - do you think there has been a legitimate question or discussion in the past month from an outsider? Just *1*?

    See below for more.

    Do you think (honestly again) - that Connovar is "helping" us out - or actually looking for input?

    I am going to be as honest and direct as I can:

    All I see is a guy who took someone's video of KSR kata - and tore it up as not being "real" enough. I don't think he is the least bit interested in what anyone else has to say - he isn't here for "discussion" - he is here to show us all that we don't know anything - especially compared to him (within the context of that video)...

    Which of course would be appropriate if Adam posted the video to have a "is this real enough - did I do it right" critique. Ask him. Seriously - ask him (EDIT - I am going to ask him for you...) I am willing to bet my forum posting rights that he was more interested in showing fellow Takamatsu-den students what his new video series is like.

    And what he got was a "that isn't a freaking taco - you did everything wrong" reply.

    If Adam did mean for a "did I do it right" part - it would be confined to a "the scroll that I have says step left foot forward - why did you step right foot" kind - not a "why are you stepping at all - I once knew a marine who was fighting 6 people in a phone booth... you did it all wrong ninja fool" post.

    Sorry - but Connovar crapped all over that thread - including his "serious" posts - the "vid or it didn't happen" posts were just gravy... All of it... crap.

    Anyway - it looks like you are way too busy looking for silver linings. I guess we balance each other out.

    'Cept you have mod powers - and can do something about the thread crapping (but won't).

    -Daniel
     
  19. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Sorry, that wasn't especially concise. To put it bluntly, his ability to comment on people's reactions to criticism pretty clearly stems from watching those people's reactions to criticism. A lot.
    If you were trying to make the point, without qualifiers, that ninjutsu training isn't comparable to other martial arts, that's as silly as someone coming in and saying, without qualifiers, that it is comparable. Some schools train in a way that is comparable, some don't.
    If you're trying to say that he simply can't know what he's talking about because he isn't "one of us", that's also ridiculous. It's perfectly natural to expect parallels between martial arts. Every flavor of practice in the bujinkan can be compared fairly closely with another art. You don't have to know all the kata or attain rank in the Takamatsuden arts to understand this, it's common sense.
     
  20. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Which is exactly my point, and without Bujinkan experience, how is he qualified to comment on in what way our methods compare to others?

    One of my current favorite recipes is referred to in an Italian cookbook as "Mexican Pasta". Basically, you fry chopped sweet red bell peppers, yellow onions and a corn cob in butter using a large pot. Then, you add pasta and fajita seasoning, fill it up with water so that it just barely covers everything, and turn up the heat. Once the pasta's al dente, it's done. Now I may have found the recipe inside a book dealing primarily with Italian cookery, however, I do have the experience necessary to see that the dish itself hardly originated in Italy.
     

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