What is Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Force, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Well mate, lets be realistic, when you try and offer an opinion as the gospel (whether you did it on purpose or unknowingly) it's likely to cause friction and lead to an argument. Funny how the arguments always seem to come back to the other persons personal conduct and not the topic itself.
  2. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Kikaku posted
    You know it really is refreshing when people like the force and Kikau come on here and tell it like it is. Its just a pity that people cant take on board what they say without all this...

    Disbeliever, burn the heretic!

  3. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    Incredibly as in "I can't believe how much of a 180 that was"

    Considering there was no list, you'll have to forgive me.

    Oh Bullshido supports you, my apologies.

    Do me a favor, start a thread over a BS with the above post and see how fast they start to make fun of you.

    Personal vendetta? Show me where I said anything like that. Here I just thought I was being helpful. Help he asked for. Help he apparently doesn't really want.
    I'm sorry if it seemed like I was being a *****, I wasn't. I was just trying to keep this thread from becoming what it has. Here we are though, you've won the internet and are the official MAP tough guys. Congratulations.

    In order for me to take the moral high ground, someone must first have taken the low.

    Protip: Now I'm being a *****.
  4. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Kikaku and The Force do you have diploma's in being incredibly rude and arrogant when someone is responding politely? If not I really think you should both be awarded one.

    Hayseed has responded reasonably throughout this thread. I personally disagree with his opinions on sparring but it's obvious that he is open to a reasonable discussion on such points. He asked for an apology because after receiving a few reasonable responses and a few discourteous ones 'The Force' launched into a generic 'Ninjutsu totally sucks' rant.

    What you two are bringing is not reasonable discussion it's arrogant, rebel-without-a-cause nonsense which buries any chance of reasonable discussion along with any valid criticisms you raise. I felt Banpen Fugyo's dismissal of 'The Force' was out of line earlier but now I can't help but admit he was right. Discussion really does not seem to be the goal here just insult, baiting and self-righteous back patting.

    So here's the thing... either post without insults or don't post at all. If you've got valid points to make then do so but do so without the amateur dramatics and the unnecessary insults.

    Consider this a general notification/warning to all participants in the thread.
  5. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    I really don't see where this happened. Sure there were a couple of people being kind of rude, but I don't see what you're talking about.

    P.S. I have responded to you. You must now toss my salad.;)
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Now I have said this before, but there are some good, very good Bujinkan and ex Bujinkan instructors out there. But when one sees things like this...

    [ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OR91Sri3dis"]YouTube - Bujinkan Israel - Tai Jutsu, Blue Cliff Dojo, Ofer 2006[/ame]

    Then one only has to wonder how the guy got an 8th dan. At one point he completly screws up a choke defence. And the 4th dan cant even take up a proper kamae.

    It really is clips like this that give the bujinkan a bad name.

    The problem is of course the 8th dan probably thinks hes good and hense why he has posted.

    In truth the fault is that of the bujinkan. One actually wonders how people get these high grades, and then of course having these grades they actually think they are good enough to instruct others.

  7. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Why are you bothering with Ninjutsu? You want to spar, you obviously dislike the senior members of your class, you find all of the videos of Ninjutsu ridiculous, you have little faith in the head of the Bujinkan's abilities, you find Ninjutsu practitioners close minded, you find Ninjutsu techniques unrealistic and too complicated... etc. etc.

    If you have found a Thai Boxing club and it suits you better then what is the issue? Why are you bothering to still train in something that obviously sincerely irks you?
  8. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    I hear you man. Take me, I'm a shodan. I didn't ask for it, even refused. I was told "You don't ask for rank, and you don't refuse it." I thought o.k whatever, I know where I really stand and that's all that matters to me. The difference between me and alot of others I see, is that I'm aware of how much I don't know, and how bad I am at what I do know.
  9. Shibari

    Shibari New Member

    Unfortunately, for once I have to agree with Garth. The uber-inflated ranks, lack of quality control and lack of a top-down policy of being willing to tell people they're crap, has resulted in videos like this one.

    When grades become worthless, the only valid basis for judging skill becomes the ability to produce results. Of course "results" is a broad term and could in theory cover a myriad of things.

    My only point therefore is to find an instructor who will guide you in the direction of the results you are hoping for.

    I would say to the OP though that two months honestly isn't enough time to decide if that club or the art is for you. It's the student's job to stfu and train according to his instructor's guidance. Much later, once you have a reasonable foundation, then you can start to ask "what if?" Of course that requires trust that the instructor is a good one. If you don't have that trust, better to leave now I always say and yes, I've done that myself several times.

    As for sparring, what exactly do you expect to spar with? After two months of training, you probably don't have any skills that have reached a level that need testing out in randori.
  10. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Shibari Posted
    Falls off chair, performs back ward roll into drink cabinet.

    Now pouring myself a stiff drink.

  11. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Disagree strongly. After 2 months you should know clearly if the club is for you. The art is a bit more tricky but if you can't make a judgment about a club after 2 months then something is seriously wrong with your decision making. You kind of make this point yourself when you go on to say that you should leave if the instructor is not a good one... an instructor could initially seem good but turn out after a few weeks experience to be full of crap.

    As per sparring. After 2 months in an art you should have something to spar with. Sparring is a means of improving your technique so it doesn't make any sense to me why it should not be a part of your training from early on.
  12. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Shibari posted
    Absolutely. this is one of the biggest mistakes made by other martial arts. Without skill all you learn is that a punch on the nose hurts.

    Many years ago when i was a youngster I spent a long time in the local boxing club in the ring. Basically i got the crap knocked out of me. Later when i was being coached the copach told me that every time a punch came close I would close my eyes. thsi was a bad habit I picked up from not having a good defence, and my only defence was to close my eyes to the attack. it took me a long time to get out of it, and had to go back to basics.

    In truth all that sparring does when it is done to early is to bring in bad habits. How many times have i seen people in Ninjutsu spar, only to see technqiues from otehr arts being thrown. you know why that is?

    Because they dont know any ninjutsu technqiues

  13. garth

    garth Valued Member

    CKava posted
    see your point and if you said karate then i would agree with you.

    But how do you spar an art based on self defence?

    In fact sparring is the wrong way forward for ninjutsu totally

  14. Shibari

    Shibari New Member

    Ckava said - "After 2 months you should know clearly if the club is for you. The art is a bit more tricky but if you can't make a judgment about a club after 2 months then something is seriously wrong with your decision making. You kind of make this point yourself when you go on to say that you should leave if the instructor is not a good one... an instructor could initially seem good but turn out after a few weeks experience to be full of crap."

    Well okay, I can see why you say that and maybe I could have been a touch clearer in what I wrote.

    Therefore to the OP I amend what I said to say this; if the club itself doesn't suit you then fine, go find another one. That's something we all go through in our careers. As for whether the art suits you, I stand by what I said in that two months of training simply isn't enough time to have a valid opinion on the art. All you can do at that stage is judge it against pre-conceptions and mis-conceptions. Give it a chance and approach it with an open mind. If you're not prepared to give it that chance then you should leave before the instructor ends up telling you to anyway.

    As for the sparring thing, in my opinion, sparring before at least some form of technical base has been created is meaningless. At two months, there is nothing of value to spar with. And yes, I know that other arts do so but I've experienced those arts too (e.g. several years of Judo) and found that, for me, while they produce working skills quickly, those skills tend to be relatively crude because the student is building his own art by experience. That's a good thing in some respects, a bad thing in others. Ultimately it comes down to personal choice.
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Garth I think you must have went to a very bad boxing gym if all they did was make you spar without teaching you any technique. Every boxing gym/thai boxing gym I've visited have stressed the importance of sparring as a means through which you learn how to perform techniques effectively when facing active resistance or avoidance.

    In terms of closing your eyes... again it sounds like a very bad boxing club that would not correct that. When I was training in Thai Boxing one very simple drill we did was spending a couple of minutes dodging one or two light jabs then deliberately taking one on the forehand with the goal being to get used to not closing your eyes when you're hit.

    As for sparring early bringing in bad habits again I have to disagree. Sparring early actually helps prevent developing bad habits. To illustrate, prior to sparring in Muay Thai I was quite convinced my combinations were decent however after I started sparring I learnt that my combinations were nowhere near as sharp as I thought when thrown against a dodging and counter attacking opponent. With BJJ when I initially started sparring I tended like everyone else I tended to try and use force and 'common-sense' to fill in where my technique and knowledge was lacking. What I quickly discovered however was that when sparring against other more experienced individuals more excess force actually worked against me. As a result my techniques and knowledge improved and continue to improve every time I spar. Learning a new technique at class is usually quite easy but it's really only when I can apply it effectively in sparring that I would consider the technique learnt and even then there are always new ways to improve which only come up as a result of using the technique in sparring.
  16. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    It depends whether you are talking about 5 times a week which is 40 sessions in all, or once a week which is 8 sessions in all. And depending upon whether each session is 1 hour, 3 hours or somewhere in between, in 2 months we could be talking about 8 hours or 120 hours.

    And 8 hours really isn't enough. Also don't forget that the club needs to decide if you are for them, which can take time, because even if the instructor is very warm and welcoming, the other students may be a little insular or protective of their teacher, their dojo and their art.

    In an art where most of the material is safe for sparring perhaps, but you could be doing a whole load of stuff in an X-Kan dojo that isn't suitable for sparring for novices, including weapons and small joint locks that need a lot of practice to be able to apply safely at speed against a resisting partner/opponent.

    Having said this you could do something akin to one-step sparring or drills that involve progressive resistance.

    But basically there really is no one-size-fits-all approach to martial arts due to the variety.
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    C Kava posted
    Yes but this was 30 odd years ago.

    But what you posted seems to back up what i put in that one first has to learn techniques before one can spar.

    Yes but this is Ninjutsu its not for sparring, its not for winning competitions its for self protection.

    Therefore exchanging blows with an opponent is not the area that ninjutsu studies, its more to do with

    What happens if a guy grabs my lapel and throws a punch or grabs me for a choke and how do I defend and escape

  18. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Ninjutsu does however make use of sweeps, punches, kicks and chokes. All of which can be trained through sparring. Maybe aspects of Ninjutsu cannot be trained in sparring but I think it's wrong to not make use of so effective of a training tool simply because it doesn't let you do everything.
  19. Arashima

    Arashima Banned Banned

    I am very much an advocate of sparring as a training tool, but not too early.

    Remember that even when traditional martial arts move beyond the uke/tori relationship there is still very much an attacker-defender theme because we are only training to become good defenders when attacked for real and becoming a good attacker is just something we do to help fellow practitioners become good defenders also.

    Sparring and arts with a sporting outlet are about two attackers, both with offensive intention. One only takes on an entirely defensive strategy when they have been overwhelmed by a superior offence and by then it can be too late because the damage is done. (and you lose points or go back to stand up if you don't keep the action coming, there is no reward for patience, which is why I liked those early 30 minute UFC matches).

    Taijutsu is generally about employing a defensive strategy from the offset and then having the option to finish things somewhat offensively once a safe vantage point has been gained through defensive/evasive/re-directional movement. We rarely or never look for a quick headshot knockout punch or take the risks involved in shoots, but go with the flow until until we can direct the flow ourselves (or break and disrupt the flow altogether).

    I don't know if you've done much or any taijutsu, but you should give it a go with a decent instructor even if just for a short while. I believe you are one of the small number of people who would appreciate its merits more quickly than a young newbie who wants to be Chuck Lidell in a ninja suit.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Im pretty sure on ''the battlefield''tm your not looking to be defensive about anything, See an opening, take it.

    Progressive randori with clearly defined goals is a good thing to practise, the goal in a non sporting art could be to disenguage and make distance, to throw cleanly or to take control of the other combatant via a clinch / entangling lock etc, it doesnt have to be ego based at all.

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