What is Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Force, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Zoom, look up over your head - I will give you a clue. Siam is the old name for Thailand, hence my Siamese twins comment. Just because your other art uses that terminology doesn't make it accurate. Last time I looked Knees were part of the Leg and Elbows part of the Arm. But using group specific jargon in a place where it is not used ordinarily by the majority, is clearly an attempt to big yourself up, look how exotic I am I am using Thai boxing terms. We get it you train in other arts, that and 25p will get you a copy of the Sun.

    My name isn't Rab C. Nesbit and I bear no resemblance to the Character played by Gregor Fisher other than really living in the same city and being middle aged, but I see you are struggling and having to make personal attacks to recover some element of pride, this is stressing you out as I said.

    And my random images were probably left because they were funny or something, they summed up how I felt about your cry for attention anyway.
    CKava: Incorrect your images were left in because I haven't been on the forum all day due to waiting on a BT engineer to arrive. Anyway, no random images. Yourself and Kikaku have now both been warned.

    <Random videos + link removed>
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2008
  2. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Well yeah.. I dont think its a necessity to have a MA background to think about smashing someone in the head with a table leg. I DO think that MAs differ in their attitude toward such things. Thats all.
  3. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    *sigh* I'm sure you could. My point being that the probability of having these items available in the heat of the moment are miniscule, therefore over-rated.

    Wow, is that how you interpret that? What can I say? Irony?.

    That’s just a sad and desperate pedantic way of trying to take a pot shot. You're way off base, scrambling for the high ground. Besides who the hell are you to judge whether the term is “accurate” or not? Who made you the ruler of semantics?

    As a Liverpool FC supporter I take great offense at being mentioned in the same sentence as that filthy rag. But then again, what else should I expect? It came from somebody who reads it. That speaks volumes about your personality.

    Decision Tree asked what other arts I trained in and that's the only time I've mentioned it, I then make one technical reference (like I'm not allowed to?) and now all of a sudden I'm showing off?

    LOL! :rolleyes: Yes I’ve been put in my place and have lost all sense of direction, pride, ego and accomplishment, after a desperate flippant remark (which was a pathetic assumption) from a middle aged man from Glasgow, who reads the Sun. I don’t know how I’m going to recover from this one! To imply that I'd lost pride and was stressing out over your little tirade, would imply that I actually have respect for you as a man, look up to you and that your opinion of me matters to me. Frankly it doesn't sir.

    Stressing out? I think I've been more stressed re-arranging my sock drawer or deciding which Pizza to order.

    Good for you! Revel in your little victory, I’m sure it’s the best news you’ve had all year :cool:
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I WAS speaking as a martial artists. My point was that a general toughness,attitude and an understanding of principles is more important that the "technique" used. While I admire and share the altruistic approach to others...real street encounters are different.

    regards koyo
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  5. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    I went along and took part in a BJJ class last night. Thought i'd see what all the fuss is about. Nice bunch of guys.

    Kikaku - I can see why you would need to combine it with something like Thai kickboxing but I dont understand why you would would combine BJJ and MT with Bujinkan training as IMO the strategy, objectives and application are completely different.

    Why do you still train in the Bujinkan? What is it you would like to learn in your Bujinkan class? There must be something you feel the Bujinkan has that you cannot get from those other places.

    Instead of taking the superior high ground becasue you have moved on and from your point of view, progressed in terms of ability since starting cross training, I feel that with your experience in the art you would get better discussion by being less argumentative and less provoking. I don't think you're a troll and I feel you would probably have something constructive to say if you went about things in a different way.
  6. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I love how everytime you describe your experience training at a different gym, you're always commenting on how "nice" they are, yet practically say nothing positive or constructive about the training itself.

    Why am I answering these questions? Didn’t I already address this the last time you asked me?

    I view all three as separate entities in their own right, which complement each other well. Ground game is highly neglected in almost all stand-up arts (including the Bujinkan), therefore I personally find the need to supplement it into my training. I find the striking methods in the Bujinkan lacking, compared to a specialized striking art such as MT, therefore I supplement.

    The Bujinkan offers me solid ukemi, a stronger emphasis on standing jutaijutsu, kihon Happo and footwork, therefore I continue to train in it. Simple and it works for me and that's what counts.

    Indeed they are, but I’ve always subscribed to what my Bujinkan instructor has tried to get me understand “change the forms” and be flexible, versatile and do not confine yourself to a certain "rule-set". Besides you're just spitting out terms to give your attempt at a opinion some validation. How is the objective different? I doubt you've ever spent any considerable amount of time training in ground game, so how can you even begin to form any sort of opinion in terms of application?

    How exactly is my “superior high ground” posturing any different than the argumentative, defensive, dismissive diatribe of others in this thread? Double standards?
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  7. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    Took some time getting back to you - Just had a great lunch with a good mate of mine. Had some Japanese food, went to a pub.. feeling mellow at the office now. Trying to keep my head down!

    I dont love anything about you but give me time. They were a nice bunch of guys. Ask a question about the training and I'd be happy to answer. Would you like me to submit a dissertation on my experience?

    I would say that with the BJJ training it would be vital to include a stand up striking style if you wanted to be a rounded fighter. Would you agree with that?

    I agree with you that ground fighting is not trained sufficiently in the Bujinkan. The question is - sufficiently for what? I'm not sure if this is due to a lack of technique in this area or whether it's becasue our Soke does not feel it is 'AS' relavent to real life altercations (I really don't know.) I think Garth, who has some law enforcement experience, said that in most of the cases he had seen, different attacks were used. I have to say, most fights i've seen are more like A throws a big punch at B.

    I'm glad we have found some common ground here.

    The objective is different. Let’s not go through the experience thing again - I'm basing this from one BJJ class but it's pretty clear that the objective of those practitioners in that training environment was to submit their opponent - similar in a way to the Judo NeWaza I've seen. They were oblivious to all else and only had that objective in mind. I'm not saying thats a wrong way to train but that is rarely the objective when training in a Bujinkan dojo.

    Do you really disagree with this?

    Just because other people do it, doesn’t mean you have to join them.
  8. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Yes please. Also if you don't mind, please provide a name (possibly a web-site?) for the school you attended.

    Yes, 100%.

    For the event that a fight is taken to the floor, or if you're taken down and mounted and need to escape. In the event that you need to apply a take down from the ground, or in the event that you need to apply a sweep or reversal. More importantly for the event that you're up against a competent grappler, wrestler or somebody with a serious weight and strength advantage. Or for sufficiently restraining somebody who fits the latters description.

    What do you mean by lack of technique?

    I think it's a fair assertion to say that Hatsumi-sensei, by his own admission hasn't been in many altercations outside of the dojo. I remember that this was something he brought up during a class. At the end of the day though, it's his system and his art, so naturally he's free to teach whatever he deems relevent any way he see's fit.

    I think you've had one too many pints, you're going off on a tangent here.


    I’ll disagree on the point that submission is the sole objective during BJJ randori. It’s all dependent on the practitioner and their given mood/motivation, certain people use randori to work on their guard passes, sweeps, reversals,control and others on their transitions. Although yes, submission is a big one and can be the overall goal.

    But let me ask you, why are you brining up the fact that it's so different to the Bujinkan? That's a given. My motivation for training in both is self explanatory and now that you’ve experienced it, I’m hoping you can understand why. Because I can make it work for me.

    Lead by example then! :)
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  9. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    If you PM me, I'll send you the link. Why is this relevant?

    I note your very good point on the need to escape after being mounted by a large opponent. I hope I have a few answers that involve creating space and striking but i'll have a look at this. There's a big guy at my Bujinkan dojo so i'll ask him to sit on me. My objective when taken to the floor would be to get up again. On the strength advantage - I know experienced Judoka/BJJ people are able to use positioning and leverage but those I have spoken with agree strength plays a major part. That's why there are weight classes.

    I wouldn't last long against an experienced wrestler or ground fighting expert if I chose to wrestle them or fight them on the ground.

    We are taught restraint in the Bujinkan (as you must know.) With restraint in the Bujinkan, I would say the objective is to restrain your opponent while keeping mobile and not being tied up yourself so you can defend yourself against other dangers if need be. Not easy - Soke does this pretty much every class when demonstrating, usually by standing on a bony part of his uke's body.

    If faced with a situation where you needed/wanted to restrain someone, what 'method/approach' would you use? What one is safer in your opinion? It's not like we have the option to switch between different fighting modes.

    Here it is.. You fight how you train and if you train to concerntrate on submitting an opponent, you are less able to deal with anything else that comes along.

    BJJ seems to involve getting more tied up in order to gain more control of that opponent where as the Bujinkan method gives perhaps less control over that opponent but more flexibility in terms of escape - would that be fair?

    Restraint/ submission techniques. Not sure about this but its seems safe to suggest there are more groundfighting/submission techniques in BJJ (as it's specialist and has developed them) than in the Bujinkan schools?

    Eg. I've never been taught the triangle in my Bujinkan class. I know the armbar where the legs are over the chest and neck is in one of the schools becasue there is a picture of it in Soke's latest book but I get a very funny look from my instructor why I do that in training. Either a funny look or a kick in the head.

    I have no idea how many altercations soke has been in outside the dojo. I've heard a few stories over the years.. Fair comment.

    This is like the 'Bujinkan is for self defence' thing. In my opinion, self defence is like submission in the above statement. There are other things you work on but that's the main objective. It seems i'm in the minority on this board compared with other Bujinkan people but thats that.

    This may not be representative of a normal BJJ class but last night they were all looking to either submit or keep from being submittted (using a specific technique to start with.) It's fine to work on other stuff to improve but the bread and butter seems to be submitting your opponent.

    I'm pointing out the differences becuase I asked some time ago why you would train in arts that have different objectives. You then suggested I was pointing out differenecs in objectives that were not there in order to validate my point. They are there and they are very big differences.

    I can see why MT and BJJ go together - they really work well as a combined system. I personally would struggle between the different training mentalities but, as you say - If it works for you then that what matters.

    I know there are lots of people in the Bujinkan who are a lot more senior than me who advocate cross training and who are ranked quite highly in BJJ etc. I find the differences in training mentality to be quite an obstacle.
  10. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    Speak with you tomorrow. Going for more Christmans drinks!
  11. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    So you agree with what koyo wrote, and still you think the concept's overrated?
  12. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Regardless of whether you're willing to get tangled up or not - it's *INSANELY* difficult to restrain someone who is totally determined to leave.

    Sure we can.

    No you don't.

    I'm surprised I've actually have to repeat this for years now...if you look at the Quest video "What Is Martial Arts" you'll see Hatsumi demonstrating basic methods of escaping restraints while on the ground. Now what I like to ask people is this - if that video had never been released, would anyone have guessed that you're "allowed" to do those things and still cal what you're doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?

    There's no such thing as sole ownership of specific techniques. What separates systems is the methods of training and what they're trying to accomplish. And what separates Hatsumi sensei from most people who're all too willing to incorporate BJJ in what they're doing is that he has the experience necessary to evaluate the things he sees.

    Woohoo! I have. Still not very good at it.

    Some people are always trying to ice skate uphill.
  13. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Thread in need of some serious tidying up. Work in Progress.

    UPDATE: I've now removed the tit-for-tat personal insults from Kikaku and adouglasmhor.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  14. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Im not sure I understand what you mean :confused:

    I mean, i get your point... I think. But I cant tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, lol.

    Maybe its a fault of my own?

    I was trying to say that, regardless of the techniques used (this isnt very important at all, would you agree?) the ability for someone to be capable of using environmental advantages is, yes individual and subjective, but could also be a product of ones training.

    Like I said earlier about the BJJ guy doing a perfect takedown and mount, but not being aware of me and my skateboard. My personal opinion, is if someone trains solely (maybe not SOLEY.. how about generally) with the perspective of dueling, or one on one fighting, then they are less prepared to view things outside of this perspective.

    If, on the other hand, someone were to train with a constant feeling of awareness, (whether this is manifested physically through 2 vs 1 training, or mentally by going through possible scenarios while training) then they are better suited to deal with situations that might pop up that are "not the norm". (Such as multiples, using makeshift weapons, using the corner of a table, spitting a shot of vodka into someones face [haha, done that one] etc)

    This isnt a clear cut distinction between training mentalities. Like already stated, someone can have no training at all or only training in BJJ, and still be a very capable 'out of the box' fighter.

    But personally, and in conclusion, I think that my studying and applying of the principles of banpen fugyo (10,000 changes, no surprise) zanshin, and fudoshin while training and even just walking down the street, are of utmost importance when it come to being able to deal with "multiples, using makeshift weapons, using the corner of a table, spitting a shot of vodka into someones face".

    PS: This wasnt supposed to be a "Haha MMAers cant fight more than one person at a time" post. I realize being proficient in knocking out one person can easily translate into being able to knockout a few people. This post was referring to specifically the notion that "anyone can pick up a ________ and use it".
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Banpen

    Constantly train as if your life depends on it. This was/is a basic principle of budo. So the assumption must be made that the other guy may be/is armed. That there shall be other opponents.

    To this end we shall train in an "emptyhand" technique and then perform the exact same movement aginst a knife (exept for maai) and if the knife points at us once after conntact we adjust the empty hand technique to consider this possibility. Ever after the empty hand technique is applied in this manner kniife or not.

    We also consider that there is ALWAYS more than one opponent therfore even against one we make sure we get a 360 view of our surroundings. Also helps avoid accidental crashes.If we are certain there is no one else involved take him to the ground and strangle him out..job done.

    This has made us aware that principles are more effective than techniques and only pragmatic techniques are given relevance in our training.

    Since this thead includes street attacks..A funny (in a way) strory for you. I worked for twenty odd years with gangs and junkies in some of the harder areas of Glagow and got to "know" some of the "hard" men.

    One of them spoke to me about martial arts and I told him an advanced principle is debana waza that is to strike while the attacker is thinking of attacking ,it is a study of timing. "Oh you mean sucker punch him?" was his reply.
    Zanshin meant "Watch your ass when in another district" I could go on but I suppose you get the joke.

    regards koyo

    I shared a dojo with mma and jj guys and when we cross trained against a knife the techniques and principles were identical.I am lucky to have lifelong friends in many disciplines and tend not to compare the arts or care in the least. One question often debated among us is NOT if that guy CAN fight. When all hell breaks loose WILL he fight.Not as easily answered as you may think.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  16. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Because I care about your well being and want to make sure that you went to a good school.

    What's your answer to when it's near impossible to create space and when it's impossible to strike/bite/pinch/gouge.Honest question.


    The lower in rank you are (as a general rule) the more strength plays a part. This goes for conservation of energy and economization of energy in BJJ/Judo.

    Besides your logic is flawed, since you’re going off anecdotes and basing your statement on a competition rule set. I have a vast strength/weight advantage over a lot of my BJJ class mates and even though at times I’m able to “out muscle” them, but for the most part (which is almost always the case) I get dominated tactically, positionally and end up getting tapped out by the smaller yet higher belts. This is a hallmark of superior leverage and positioning, which doesn’t equate to a reliance of strength as a “major” part as you put it.

    A specialist in a particular fighting skill (say, Boxing or Judo) is naturally going to have a huge advantage over one who does not specialize in that skill. A person with two specialties under his belt (like say the rather commonplace Muay Thai and BJJ mix) is going to be even more dangerous as now he controls both ranges where daikentaijutsu and jutaijutsu are used.

    He also has the huge benefit of training in two very alive arts.

    What's your definition of restraint? I weigh close to 92KG (low b/f % ;) :cool:) and I've been tapped by a small 65KG man, who was side mounting me with a head control (zero space and zero leverage on my side). He was able to maximize his weight distribution through technique and then by simply thrusting his hips. It felt like my entire chest was compressing and I had to tap because I couldn’t breathe. Wouldn’t you call that restraint?

    BJJ has lots of standing take downs, which can be modified for “restraint”, whilst staying mobile. It all comes down to the practitioners personal application.

    Restraint + painful application = submission/pain

    Soke standing on "boney part of ukes body" + Kyusho manipulation= Restraint/submission/pain.

    See the applications/objectives are not that different now are they? They both yield the same results.

    How can I answer that? It obviously depends on the situation.

    Which ever one leaves me in the safest position, based on the situation.

    Wrong, of course we do. I take it English is the only language you're able to speak? You can't speak Spanish? Italian? (two Latins) Dutch?. See my point?

    Actually you don't fight how train. So you were able to gauge that from one BJJ class? See my above comment. I’ll add that this “submission” fixation concept which you’re arguing and generalizing can be used/modified for “restraint”-“control”-“transitioning”-“pain motivation”-“submission”-“self defence”, does this sound familiar?

    You’re looking at it from an inexperienced and narrow mind in this case. So when Soke is demonstrating a concept during his Sunday morning class and his uke starts tapping in pain, isn’t that just simply “submitting”? :rolleyes:

    Are we talking about 2 BJJ practitioners going against each other, or 1 BJJ practitioner against "random thug X"?

    Yes and no. Again it depends on the personal application and interpretation of the user. Is the situation standing or on the ground? Can the BJJ'er afford to take the fight to the ground? Too many variables to make it so clear cut.

    Let me ask you, have you ever made somebody "tap" in a Bujinkan class?

    Because in fairness you’re not making much of an attempt to keep you cup empty, so to speak.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  17. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Sorry sir! :evil:

    Ok, now that the conversation has taken a turn to ground you're familiar with (no pun intended), will you be contributing? I'd like to think you'd have some interesting feedback on Decision Tree's latest BJJ observations.
  18. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  19. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I take it this little scenario is some kind of fetish of yours?

    That's up to you, it's your fantasy.

    That's up to you, it's your fantasy.

    Because that would be illegal and I live in the real world :rolleyes:

    For somebody who's 30 years old, I'd expect a little more maturity and level headedness. But there you go again, straight on the offensive with your clichés, stereotypes and childish deluded straw man fantasy argument.

    EDIT: I just noticed that you deleted your post? Cowardice.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  20. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    Like I said in my private message. Thanks for caring. I actually prefer going private in some cases because people are more able to listen when they know their comments are not going to be under public scrutiny.

    I had a good chat with a Judo BB over a drink and he said that in his opinion, 50% was technique and 50% was athletic ability/ strength. I've found that when sparring in Judo, the really strong guys perfomed better, despite their experience. I'm sure you're right that with higher ranks, position and leverage becomes more important and a more determining factor. I agree with you on this.

    My answer would be not to let myself get in that position in the first place. If i'm in a position where i'm on the ground under a 20 stone man with my arms and legs pinned with no space to move - i'm probably going to be knocked out or killed/ whatever Bubba chooses really. Unless someone comes to my rescue.

    I think someone asked Nagato once what you should do if someone is aiming a gun at you and you have no cover etc.. He said - you get shot. (Forgot where I heard this so..pinch of salt required.)

    I know situation discussions will be case by case but I dont feel like you can turn on Bujinkan mode/ mentality/ strategy and then suddenly turn it off and engage BJJ warp drive. Like Rocky changing to southpaw.

    Tapping someone out in a Bujinkan class - I can see where this might be going but ok.. Of course I have.

    Also.. What is the obsession with people's age? I could be more mature than a 50 year old. A 40 year old could be far less experienced than a 20 year old in the subject under discussion. I'm not sure why you feel the need to look at a poster's age before directing your responce?
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008

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