What is Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by The Force, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    :rolleyes: Yes. The original context/argument was that Ninjutsu practitioners were more inclined to pick a mock weapon off the street in a real altercation.
  2. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    :rolleyes: Coins from my pocket? Gravel off the floor? Lid from a bin? Stray bottle? How many often do you train using these "non traditional" creative weapons in actual training?
  3. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Kikaku posted
    Are you joking?

    What with the credit crunch and all

  4. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I said coins, not money ;)
  5. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Actually... maybe we should start another thread for this one... but Im definitely more inclined to believe that ninpo practitioners will use out of the box thinking compared to someone in other arts.

    Ninpo people all train with a consistent awareness of things around us (hell, we even make sure we are on one knee with our balls of our feet on the ground so we can look around/get up quickly). Well most of us do anyways.

    This is like the story i tell millions of times over about my friend and i and an attacker. Ill spare you the details for the millionth time, but stuff happened ad this guy was focused on his 1 on 1 training too intently. His double leg takedown which landed him smoothly into a mount on top of my friend (which he did rather well) made him completely oblivious to the fact that I was hovering over him with my skateboard firmly in the decapitation-position.

    I know in ALL the fights Ive been in, Ive never once made the same mistake as he.

    This could easily be attributed to individual differences, rather than MA style-faults, but my own experiences just strengthen my beliefs that if there were a bottle or trash can or another person or laptop or chair or knife etc, a properly trained ninpo practitioner would notice it before a properly trained BJJer.

    This doesnt mean a BJJer CANT use this weapon. Just like when we talk about using eye gauges and fish hooks and such. Its very easy to say "well anybody can do that" but that isnt exactly true. Yes anyone is ABLE, but how many people would actually think to? How many people actually TRAIN to think to?
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Last time I looked coins were money, unless you mean your coin collection?

  7. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I think you're showing how little you understand ninjutsu training. We have used plenty of 'street available' items in our training, e.g. using a chair as a weapon - and I don't just mean smashing it into someone like in the movies.

    Absolutely! Pretty much every time we do weapons work our instructor will mention what other items could be used in place of a particular weapon, e.g. an umbrella in place of a hanbo. It's about being creative with your surroundings and using what is available to you. Thinking outside the box - which a lot of other styles don't do.
  8. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    :rolleyes: Yes, that must be it. Or perhaps I'm not deluded and caught up in un-practical fantasy (based on unfortunate experience).

    Because there are all always chairs available when you need them though right!?. My point is that the whole concept of using make shift weapons is massively over-rated. I'd rather focus on using/training the weapons which are always available and most effective (within the legal realms, to a certain extent, i.e. my 8 limbs).
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  9. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Shouldn't that be common sense? If you practice grabbing opportunistic items and beating people's heads with them, wouldn't you be more prone to doing that? (Schools that actually practice this may not be the norm, I understand. It should be a given that if it isn't practiced, there'd be no difference, so for the sake of the argument I'm going to assume we're talking about schools that do.)

    It's a little like saying "Well anyone can use an armbar or guillotine." The idea of them are pretty common knowledge, and they're not all that complicated. The difference between a random guy and a martial artist is the practice. Of course someone who practices one method will be more prone to using that method than someone who does not. (and depending on the practice, it might actually work :rolleyes: )
  10. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    This is a bit scattershot so I apologise.

    This is a good example of a non-issue. Although I find Kikaku to be unnecessarily confrontational and I think he is being far too dismissive of people's previous experiences the issue he took in this case was justified.

    Decision Tree described himself as an 'amateur boxer'. This title is usually for someone who competes in amateur boxing tournaments not for someone who has trained in boxing. Kikaku took issue with Decision Tree describing himself as an 'amateur boxer' as he was aware he had only trained for a bit when at school. Decision Tree has since then acknowledged that his choice of words was poor.

    So no you do not need to compete in tournaments to have valid experience however that is a separate issue from whether someone who trained for a bit (in school?) but has not competed in amateur tournaments should refer to themselves as an 'amateur boxer.

    I do not equate not having personal experience as one in the same as 'being uninformed'. I do not have direct experience of being a Judo player but I think I have a relatively good grasp of what Judo involves. It is also quite clear by this stage that you consider any non-Ninjutsu practitioners view on Ninjutsu to be 'crap', I haven't missed this point. I just don't agree and I believe I've outlined why multiple times now.

    I think this is a label which is not just used by non-Ninjutsu practitioners. To be honest I remain highly skeptical that most folk in Ninjutsu do not regard their training to be teaching them effective self defence. I am certain that there is a wider emphasis than pure self defence techniques but I think that it is a bit too much to suggest that Ninjutsu is being mislabeled if anyone thinks it has anything to do with self defence. I could be wrong but if I am then lots of Ninjutsu practitioners on here have lied over the years I've been here.

    People on here are not tourists if they are non-Ninjutsu practitioners, they are MEMBERS of a martial arts discussion board and they are discussing their opinion on martial arts. I am all for Non-Ninjutsu folks being more respectful and less confrontational if they expect practitioners to answer their questions/engage in discussion. However I am also all for Ninjutsu practitioners responding to comments/queries without always assuming the worst or interpreting every comment from every Non-Ninjutsu practitioner in the most confrontational manner.

    Taking the first chunk of threads from the top of the Ninjutsu forum today:

    This thread - MMA/Ninjutsu debate.

    On kukishinden ryu- NO MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    Vacation- NO MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    Faking Your Training History 101- No MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    Awesome Offer- No MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    So, what'd I miss?- No MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    Can I use my jika-tabi for jogging?- No MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    Opinions on Jinenkan Kata Videos - No MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    Bujinkan school london- No MMA/Ninjutsu debate.
    Koku - A highly academic discussion on the "correct" way of executing the kata- No MMA/Ninjutsu debate.

    I really don't think the problem is as bad as people suggest.

    It would be nice if certain individuals on BOTH SIDES recognised this point and stopped taking potshots about unnecessary trivial details or refusing to recognise any valid point made if the person making it isn't from your 'side'.

    Finally, Hissatsu & Martial Dad cool it down. I know your both cheeky gits but if you could cut down on the flaming just a little bit it would be greatly appreciated!
  11. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I don't know what kind of world you live in but in most locations there are plenty of things that could be used as weapons if you were so inclined. Chairs are not a rarity in most indoor locations.

    Also, I know you are using the Thai definition of limbs but it really does sound a bit odd to claim to have 8 limbs. Elbows and Knees are not really limbs. People training in Muay Thai wouldn't find such a comment odd but most other people would.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  12. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    At my desk now there are loads of things that can be used if need be.


    My stapler
    My calculator
    My pen *mobile weapon - take one everywhere*
    My keyboard (wanted style.)

    Most things can be used as a weapon.

    Stand outside in the street and look around for 10 seconds and see if you can spot anthing you could use if Brock Lesnar was bearing down on you with a rage on.


    Are there more chairs or more people in the world?
  13. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I live in a world where I don’t need to worry about being attacked indoors or at the venues I hang out in. I live in a world where I take stock of legal repercussions and the repercussions of the actions of those I could potential maim, if I was to use a potential deadly weapon.

    Besides, if you have time to pick up a weapon, you have time to run away. Although I thought the “street” meant exactly that, the street. Are we talking about bar fighting now? :rolleyes:

    And? It's a MA definition, being stated in a MA forum :confused:
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  14. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I wouldn't know. I don't train to use weapons to beat peoples heads in :rolleyes:
  15. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't just making a flippant remark to dismiss a point you have no response to.
    The only other possibility is that you're serious, and you really do mean that you wouldn't know. Of course, up until now, you've been talking a lot about whether one group or the other would or wouldn't be more likely to effectively use a weapon of opportunity in an altercation...
    What exactly are you trying to do here?
  16. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    That's great and all but my point was you seemed to be suggesting that it was unrealistic to expect things like chairs to be around to use as makeshift weapons when in fact it's a perfectly sensible expectation.

    I think your taking the word too literally. The 'street' people talk about in these kind of discussion does not usually refer only to actual streets but anywhere 'out there' where violent encounters can occur.

    It's a Thai Boxing term being used in the Ninjutsu forum in a way that makes it sound like you don't know how many arms and legs you have to anyone not familiar with how 'limbs' are loosely defined in Thai Boxing. I'm not telling you not to use it just pointing out it's not your everyday definition.
  17. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    What point am I dismissing? I've stated several times that the whole make-shift weapon debate is nothing more than overrated, un-practical fantasy which can potentially hold serious legal repercussions. It originally came up as a weak argument in which to give further validation to the Bujinkan, in a vain attempt to degrade MMA’s street effectiveness.

    To be honest I think it’s a waste of time discussing it and I wasn't the one who brought it up.

    :rolleyes: I'm having a conversation, what exactly are you doing here?
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  18. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Ok so you're talking about bar fighting then and not a literal street fight. Whatever keeps you safe then I suppose :cool:

    Ok Captain Pedantic I won't use it again :cool:
  19. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    For the record I should add I don't really ever find myself considering what I could convert into a weapon in an everyday environment and have very little concern with finding myself in a violent situation in my day-to-day existence.
  20. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I don't think you are here to debate Ninjutsu, I think you are here to troll and disrupt discussions. You are aggressively dismissive, patronising and condescending to anybody who gives you a reasonable answer. You misinterpet what is being said to try to make it fit with you ignorant view of what Ninjutsu is. A makeshift weapon is nothing more than another tool in your arsenal. It is not the be all and end all of training. You were given EXAMPLES of what we use and again misintepreted EXAMPLES as the only thing that we cover. Examples are just that, they are an indicator of what we consider as makeshift weapons not the only ones we use.

    I find it totally hypocritical that the same people who extole the virtues of pressure testing and sparring, by saying that unless you train something in a 'live' manner you won't be able to use it in the 'real world', are the same people who immediately jump on the 'you are all a bunch of LARPers and Fantasists' bandwagon when the issue of weapons training comes up. The whole point of training weapons is to have another tool that can be used. Most people here will say that if possible the first reaction should be to try to get out of the situation by running away. However that is not always possible and neither is an armbar or an effective punch, in which case the ablitly to use random objects effective as weapons will definitely enhance your chances of surviving an attack.

    One of the reasons I train is for self defence!


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