Who teaches when you have multiple instructors? You work things through, each bringing their own ideas and strengths.
I’m not the one adopting the holier than thou “I train for the real world” therefore anything that is “sport” based is not practical stance. I’m merely pointing out that you shouldn’t be making all these unfounded claims as the gospel, when you have a lame basis for comparison. Since we all love analogies around here, I’ll give you a good one: You’re making out that you’re a connoisseur of Wine and Spirits, with a distinct ability to critique its finer points, when all you’ve ever tasted/drank is Beer. Oh, but that one time you had a tiny sip of that light-bodied Beaujolais Nouveau, has now become your reference and sole basis of fact from which to draw from. My gripe with you is that by your own admission, have practically no outside experience with other arts/training methodologies. This is a FACT which has been established on multiple occasions. Therefore by that same admission your opinion means exactly squat! I’m looking at your rants with distain and finding it comical that you’re expecting to be taken seriously and hoping that your opinions will hold water, based on what? I know! A whole lot of sweet FA! LOL! Ok sport, whatever you say. Childish pot shots from desperation I see. Beaten to hell? Kindly elaborate...I can already tell where you’re going with this statement and I’m way ahead of you. What’s your definition of “full on” if you don’t spar? Elaborate, I’d love to hear this. Elaborate, I’d love to hear this. Based on your little comment, you were insinuating that a Bujinkan member is going to be more aware and tactically astute at looking for/using weapons in a conflict. I disagree.
Now this is just pure and utter misleading fraud. Training as a Boxer DOES NOT make you a boxer in any way shape or form :bang: Being a Boxer(amateur/professional) entails having a boxing licence and partaking in official sanctioned matches. I’ll add that your P.E boxing at school does not equate to any sort of appropriate experience, giving you the right to speak with such authority whilst scrutinizing. What makes you an expert in punching btw? Because you keep on insinuating how Boxing is “Sport based”-“Only for the ring”-“Follows rules” etc etc. Why don’t you walk into a good Boxing gym and call their methods “just an unrealistic sport” with no bearing on anything outside of the ring. Please film it if you do. Ah yes, you’re quite cunning aren’t you the way you litter your facts/opinions with poisoning of the well tactics. Now how exactly is that clutching at straws? It’s completely relevant to my argument, in that you have a lame basis for comparison, no matter how you sugar coat it. If anybody is clutching at straws it’s you, by trying to have your unsubstantiated opinion taken seriously. I like the way you put an understanding emphasis on the word sparring, then poisoned the well in brackets. LAME! So you went to two local dojo’s a handful of times and you think that gives you a wide scope to draw from, like what you experienced is the standard. So you see a poor sparring attempt at a Hapkido Dojang and now you "understand" sparring. Have I got that part right? How many more times does this have to be repeated? *sigh* It’s still bare bones minimal though and not even an accurate representation of the standard/scope! Who said anything about training in every art out there over an extended period of time? Stupid way of thinking? I think that’s the only part you got right, if it was aimed at yourself. Right! So you’ve “seen it” have you!? I’ve “seen” Formula-1 racing and I can drive a car, does that mean I now have an opinion worth stating and arguing? What if I sat in an F-1 car and drove it slowly around the track at 20 MPH, does that make my opinion any more valid? Now at 24 years of age with an immeasurable wealth of experience, you feel you can pick apart, scrutinize and critique the finer points of training methods outside of your element? Based on what? A few slow laps around the track in an average running car? WRONG! Where are you learning these “facts”!? Again what’s your basis for comparison for these stereotypes? Perhaps if you trained with them, you’d be entitled to an opinion worth listening to and then you wouldn’t sound so arrogant and misguided. Nobody is saying that it is! I was being facetious . That’s it? It just puts the student on the spot and adds pressure? Epic, such realism that's preparing you for the "real world". Ah! More re-hashed stereotypes and pre-conceived notions. You can’t even think for yourself. Sad. You’re not even taking ANY blows/kicks with gloves/padding in a full resistance setting, so you’re at a disability/loss for starters on that weak argument. Put in that same postion you'd fold like cheap patio furniture, at least the MMA practitioner has a fighting chance. Besides have you ever been punched square on by somebody wearing MMA gloves? It’s not that far from being punched bare fist.
You better get off those roids, they are making you angry. I'd like to address this: CKava Just one more thing... Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: London/Belfast Age: 25 Posts: 4,095 Decision Tree you make some valid points however I think describing yourself as an amateur boxing for having some experience in your teens with boxing is a bit misleading. You're an amateur boxer in my eyes if you've competed in sanctioned amateur boxing tournaments if yo uhaven't you were not an amateur boxer. I used the term (incorrectly) amature boxing because I didn't want to sound like I was some pro boxer - far from it! Amature seemed like a suitable word for this. I spent some time in a boxing gym and regulary sparred as part of the normal training. In my opinion, boxing training is some of the best physical training you can do. It is fair to say though - I understand what is meant by Sparring in relation to a boxing gym. I also understand what is meant by sparring in relation to a Judo dojo. When we have people on here like Tropher and Martial Dad talking about arts they have absolutly NO experience in, the fact that I have sparred with Boxing and Judo players means that i'm more able to talk about that than they are. If you asked, I would also tell you that Judo sparring is tough! If you read - I did not say that just becasue it's a sport, it's not effective on the streets. I know people who box and I wouldn't mess! I have respect for people who train in other arts - I feel Bujinkan is better for ME! I'm entitled to talk about this, I've been good enough to state my experience (however limited in your opinion) which is more than Tropher or Martial Dad thought good to do. Based on this, you have the ability to decide how relavent that view is. I know what you're going to say to this so don't bother If you have driven a F1 car - i'd listen to you describe how the cornering differs when compared to the cornering in a Ford Focus. Although, you dont come across like the kind of person who would be much fun on a night out. If you're like this out there you're going to need all that MMA experience plus some. Lets also look at the age thing - Man, I'm 24! I'm not some 13 year old who's been learning MA watching power rangers and thunder cats. Get over yourself on this. I have a lot to learn about the art I study and those who know me will agree that i'm the first to say I don't know it all. Debate allows me to talk about my current views - If they are tested and changed, then thats good. 'Full on' (Decision Tree definition) I'm trying to take his Fu%#ing head off.
Winstrol will do that to you :bang: I beg to differ, come on...At every twist and turn, you're constantly directly stating or insinuating to the contrary. It's normally in the form of "They wear gloves"-"They follow a rule set"-"It's basically for cardio"-"They don't deal with multiple elements". That's not entirely true now though is it? I'm pretty sure both have at some point? Regardless... LOL! That really hurt! And? Except when it comes to Internet forums. What are you complaining about then? POWER LARP! (kidding )
You have to look at context. Tropher and Martial Dad were implying that training in MMA is a direct reflection of a street fight. I disagree with this and I pointed out the differences (gloves, other variables etc.) I would not say that Boxing/ MMA training would not be effective on the streets becasue I believe it would be. I don't feel any type of martial arts training can prepare you 100% for a real life altercation. Regardless nothing. People on this forum are forced to listen to twaddle from Tropher and Martial Dad (supported by the Mod) when they have no experience in our art and in MDs case, no first hand experience in the MMA training that he is talking about (other than watching Jnr do his spinning back kicks.) You then jump on me about the lack of experience I have in the boxing and Judo that I've talked about, even though that experience is 1 million times more than those other people have. Condone MD and Tropher if you're going to have a go at anyone about soapboxing from a posistion of no experience (not that you would, they are MMA brothers so the double standard applies )
I don't think either of them said that, I think the argument was MMA sparring is the closest reflection of a street fight available. I agree. Nobody has to listen to anything, they can choose to skip whatever they don't want to read or be subjected to. Listen mate, I honestly couldn't care less about their claims/experience. They're not worth bothering getting worked up over. Besides at the time of entering this thread, I chose to address your points and critiques. That doesn't make your experience any more valid. Don't you mean condemn? Do you want to know why I haven't addressed their ranting? Because to be honest I don't think they're worth bothering with. So your double standards stigma doesn't apply in this case. LOL what do you mean by MMA brothers? What are you implying? That I'm a cross trainer or a competitive MMA cage fighter?
If you want to take part in the discussion, you are forced to listen and respond to those comments. True, no one is actually forcing me to read those statements. I'm glad we agree on something. However, in a discussion, surely any FIRST HAND experience in something is valid so long as the amount of experience is revealed and is honest - although I said amature instead of novice with regards to boxing (which I have pointed out was a mistake and was not intentially used to imply more experience) I have always been honest. Eg.. I'm more able to talk about whats it like to have a drink on a Cuban beach than someone who hasn't been there. I might have stayed in a hotel for two weeks and only visited a few places but I am able to give my opinion on Cuba based on that. Someone could read online 100 descriptions of what it was like to drink that drink including how the drink is made, what ingredients are in it and how it would feel to taste it but my experience of actually doing it is going to be better for the discussion. I'm glad you dont care about Tropher or MD, sorry for lumping you in with the same crowd. My critiques were in context - that is important. condone: This means to overlook or forgive bad behaviour, or to treat it as unimportant. Sorry, I meant don't condone Tropher and MD. Are you currently training in a martial art? Genuine interest. As this thread is already derailed, why dont you tell me why you decided to leave the BJK?
Ok cool..Let's agree to disagree and be friends Yes, I'm currently training full time in Muay Thai with a former world champion from Thailand and in BJJ under a Brown belt. I'm still a member of the BJK last time I checked I just find it difficult with my current schedule and logistics to make the classes.
Although im a few pages behind i thought it would be rude not to reply. Yes it does help, i can see your point and think it would be a great distraction to sink a RNC in
Cool. I have a question that you may be able to answer in a constructive way that considers the more sensitive members of this forum. After 4 years training and 2 trips to Japan where you were fortunate enough to have private tuition etc, why did you decide that MT and BJJ would be better for your personal goals? What was it about the BJK training that did not meet those goals?
Kikaku - no need to post I know why: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tuffgrrlz.com/fighters/img/l_king.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tuffgrrlz.com/%3Fpage%3Dcompetitors%26fighter_id%3D126&usg=__-p0yRIffZOD2JfbcQYx_POCdAws=&h=500&w=400&sz=22&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=pNfj00o1Y8Zv9M:&tbnh=130&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3DLisa%2BKing%2BKickboxing%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff
It was never a case of the Bujinkan not meeting any particular goals, it was more down to the fact that no art is complete. Naturally many people will disagree with me on this point, but this just my personal quirk when it comes to MA. I thoroughly enjoy and feel that it’s vital to cover all the bases and aspects of fighting/training, in order to maximize potential and be truly proficient. BJJ covers a vital area which is often neglected, in favour of stand-up and I was pretty much hooked from the beginning after being dominated by guys half my size, when I had a clear size, height, weight, strength advantage. I also enjoy the ancillary benefits such as the competitive nature, full-resistance application and cardio. I personally find that it translates well when combined with a solid stand-up art like Muay Thai. Which I believe has fascinating traits, such as its simplicity (yet highly technical in its own right) such as powerful punching techniques, solid kicking, technical and powerful knees/elbows, conditioning, timing, cardio conditioning. These are all the traits of a well rounded fighter, which I feel translate well to most conditions (outside of weapon attacks). Having the chance to train with a Thai, who’s a former world champion with over 300 professional bouts was also too much of an opportunity to turn down.
Ok I have to admit I'm getting a bit lost as to where the argument lies here or what the precise point being discussed is. It seems to me that many people actually AGREE about a hell of alot of things but are too busy arguing and taking pot shots about people's backgrounds to acknowledge it. Oh and because it's been brought up a couple of times I'd like to make some things clear. - I DO think that people not in an art can know things about it and discuss things about it without training in the style. - I DO think that you can have an appreciation of what styles are about without training in them from secondary sources especially when they are popular. - I DO NOT think that youtube videos will reflect everyones training within a certain style. - I DO NOT think that all practitioners of an art must endorse all representations of the art that are out there. - I DO think Ninjutsu practitioners have to put up with more than their fair share of nonsense/trolls BUT I DO think that Ninjutsu practitioners are too quick to label non-practitioners as trolls. - I DO NOT endorse trolling or people making generalisations with no intention to engage in discussion. Hopefully that should clarify that I do not endorse everyone critical of Ninjutsu nor do I endorse random punters coming in and slamming all Ninjutsu practitioners because they saw a silly video on youtube. I endorse those I believe to be honestly interested in discussion, who do not cause intentional disruption and who seem to be pursuing reasoned arguments. I don't mind heated debate and I'm not going to take any measures to prevent such debate from taking place- I will however take steps if I find people being intentionally insulting and/or just aiming to cause disruption.
At the end of a long day at work so excuse the sharp tone but... for god sake, one long thread with a relatively benign dispute between some posters is hardly reason to run for the hills or to get worked up. If you can't handle the odd thread with people arguing over stuff you don't consider interesting or important I suggest the internet is not the place for you. Now, of course, if we just restricted all access to this forum to posters who were in general agreement then I'm sure such threads would go away. However, haven't we already covered this discussion (X100)? It's not going to happen and if that's your cup of tea I believe there is at least one other forum that would serve your needs. There is only one active thread I am aware of with this kind of discussion occuring in this forum is it really too much to ask folks to ignore it if they really don't want to take part? :bang:
As it happens I have trained and competed in both judo and full contact kickboxing and help to run a thai boxing/MMA gym. If you care to read back through this thread the only comments I have made regarding MMA is to the way in which they train, their beliefs and the way in which they work through their sessions. It's a relatively new experience for me to work with the MMA guys but as I'm making money off them I feel I need to know a little about what they do and how they think.
You tell him, MD! BTW, have to give you lots of credit for maintaining a polite, informed posting demeanor in spite of some insulting comments from folks with opposing viewpoints.
Would you say the same goes for BJJ and MMA? If so - then the number of people we can dismiss immediately on lack of (credentials?) just increased exponentially. ;-) If not - why not? For the record - I put in about 9 months at a Boxing club (twice / three times a week). I don't claim boxing experience normally - but I would like to think that if I threw my opinion up on it - it wouldn't be immediately dismissed because I don't have a state license. I wouldn't go that far - but I will tell you I had a very hard time limiting myself to their ruleset when in classes. Someone leaning on you is just begging to be thrown - and someone exposing the back of their head is just looking to be brain dusted. I am not saying they would do that on "teh streetz" but those are bad habits that are re-enforced every day they they walk into the gym... But then again - I am smart enough to separate class from not-class -- so it would be demeaning to say they aren't able to make the same leap. Would you consider my opinion unsubstantiated as well? Honest question - I am ok if you think so. I have. And the padding on the gloves is to protect the hands - not the person getting punched (although there are less cuts with the MMA gloves on). -Daniel
You can block a swing with a bo staff with your face as well. But only once. Which does not change the fact that uninformed opinions are most often crap. I've been busy throughout this thread with explaining why. That's nothing if you compare how quick they are to label our training as self defense... That, my man, has been much more rare than you're trying to make it seem like.
