What is MMA?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Bruce W Sims, Aug 8, 2012.

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  1. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    A lot of it ties into the awareness and avoidance training (verbal and physical - basically keeping your body out of places it shouldn't be and letting your mouth try to get you out of it before it reaches a point of fighting). We also use things like trapping to stop low level threats - basically shutting down a possible attack before it escalates into a full blown one.
     
  2. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    How is the verbal training done?

    I've found a few may pay lip service :D to this type of thing but it often only amounts to them saying "I'll stay out of bad places and won't argue".

    Sometimes being able to de-escalate something requires a degree of personal insight and certain listening skills that need to be worked on.

    I'd be interested in hearing about some of your drills.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Actually, I don't think we disagree that much. I use "specific" because for the most part, I find that MMA students train in MMA in order to fight in MMA matches, so it tends to be a fairly specific goal in training. They can source the material from wherever but it needs to meet a certain "acid test", namely work under pressure and under a (limited set of) rules against a opponent trying to win. I think because of the parameters, many competitors tend to follow a very similar approach (i.e. "what works in the ring").

    As for being more 'widely applicable', I agree (and hope that came across in my earlier post). MMA training is great - the focus on conditioning and high percentage skills that work is awesome. MMA would be a good foundation for ANY art (competitive or self defense). That said, to transition from MMA to self defense would require practice time spent on new skills and some philosophical changes too (e.g. in self defense, we are trying to keep potential opponents at the lowest level of force and avoid fighting if possible - in MMA, you already know that the guy across from will will be using a high level of force and intent to hurt you).


    I think your examples support what I am trying to get at too. MMA is great for a defined set of conditions, to expand its effectiveness beyond those conditions is very 'do-able' but requires some change in training and mindset.(We have a guy who came to us from a NHB school and is now a 3rd dan in Combat Hapkido - he came in with great skills and spent a lot of time adapting what he does to Hapkido... worked well).

    To take Hapkido and try to phase it into a ring-appropriate art would take a much bigger shift - I think it could be done but I would bet that a Hapkido-based ring fighter would end up looking very much like other MMA fighters, especially after they start focusing on the conditions of the ring and training in "what works" in the ring.

    In essence, In stand by the advice earlier - if you want to compete in MMA, then go to a MMA school that knows how to train you to succeed. If you want to learn practical self defense and spend time working on the more high percentage threats, go to a good self defense school. Want to be even better "all around" - do both!
     
  4. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I always thought that KYOKUSHIKAI was rather MMA-like. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Well that explains a lot about this thread.
    Kyokushinkai isn't anything like MMA in training structure, intent or application.
    FWIW.
     
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    More like KYOKUSHIKAI misxed with Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, JJJ, MT and Boxing.
     
  7. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Why?
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Well in Kyokushin they still do kata, linework, gradings, belts, gis and the whole master/student hierarchy tradition stuff. They do no groundfighting at all (IIRC) and aren't allowed to clinch or groundfight in sparring. They don't even punch each other in the head.
    Now I loves me some Kyokushin but like MMA it most certainly isn't.
     
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Eh....you may be in some need of information RE: KYOKUSHINKAI.

    See my response to Callsign.
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    My experience with KYOKUSHINKAI Karate was quite an eye-opener.

    First off: all of the other Karate experiences entailed sparring albeit with pulled punches. KK was the first time that I was allowed to actually make full-contact (to the body and legs) and I was stunned to find how much a Human Being is good condition can take. Along these same lines I was surprised to find out how much I could take if I was in decent condition and once I got past the shock of being hit with real intention. In hand with this, and unlike SHOTOKAN, SHUDOKAN or GO-JU Karate, we used target bags ("mitts") and a quite a bit of body bag. Not too much in the way of punching to the air.

    Secondly, I understand that some folks may think that KK does not do grappling, or much or it, or spend any time on the ground. In competition with strangers I must admit that rules are pretty tightly followed and the match is closely structured. However, activities in the school among people who are more familiar could get pretty rough. Just cause we were knocked to the floor, it didn't follow that a partner stepped back while we got up.

    Thirdly, we DID use KATA as part and parcel of our training, but I must confess KK was the first time when I was educated about how KATA are actually used in a training regime as compared to something like SHOTOKAN where KATA are almost an exclusive pursuit in their own right.

    As a Hapkido teacher, I had advocated with my late teacher to incorporate some of what I experienced. He was firmly against it, seeing it as a corruption of YMK Hapkido. Funny thing is that just before he died, KJN Myung and his compatriot, the late HAN Bong Soo, visited grappling competitions to investigate what could be used in Hapkido. Go figure.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Without drifting too far off-topic, I'd say we try to do this in a fairly practical manner. Again, at our level we do it more as a general level application - not on par with psychological experts and the such but we've had good anecdotal results.

    We do a bit of the teaching about body language that may precipitate an attack (especially the draining of color, the shakes, and such) as well certain key verbal phrases that may escalate or de-escalate.

    I think the most useful training we do is by sprinkling this throughout the regular curriculum. When we do the ubiquitous wrist grabs and garment grabs (this is Hapkido after all), we vary it up with a bit of roleplay, namely having the partner add the verbal element and equivalent level of force. The defender has to interpret how far the partner will go and react to the threat in an appropriate way, ranging from just breaking away to striking/takedown/etc. There is a lot of "talking through" the scenario, as far as how far we need to go, what the motivations are, what the legal ramifications are, and so.

    Some of the physical drills work from trapping (like in Jeet Kune Do) and the escalating those to locks or strikes and then to reactions if one technique doesn't work. Again, we work in the verbal and "storyline" of the attack.
     
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    And you may be in need of a training session or two in MMA.
    Or even like...watch it occasionally.
    I do a Kyokushin offshoot called Shidokan that is more like MMA than regular Kyokushin and still wouldn't say what I do is like MMA.
     
  13. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    lol harsh but fair :D

    Its hard to have a discussion about something you know nothing about thats for sure
     
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    OK...now wait a minute......

    Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I was of a mind that people came to MAP for information. Now, I made a point of saying that most MMA posts I have run across are long on derision and short on information. Caught a bit of crap for that, but thats OK.

    Now I sense that I am getting the same old "MMA Attitude".

    Maybe YOU fellas think that MMA is the greatest thing since sliced bread and thats just fine. Glad you are proud of what you do. But if you can't share information about MMA, or can only offer chides to any attempt to find commonality with what you do, I'm not above telling you what you can do with your activities. Maybe you don't realize how you are coming across, but the impression that you are giving me, anyhow, is that MMA is the be-all-and-end-all and everything else sux.

    Now how about some intelligent conversation? I've done MY part to understand based on what I have experienced in my 30 years of MA. If thats not good enough and that only REAL MMA people who train in REAL MMA schools and compete in REAL MMA events will ever truly understand true MMA then I elect we put MMA on the same shelf with the Japanese elitists who believe that only REAL Japanese will ever truly understand REAL Japanese MA.

    Regards.
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I don't do MMA.

    Anyway...MMA isn't the be-all but it certainly has a LOT to show people in how to be functional in combat. A lot to show people, that are in arts that specialise, how broad and inclusive fighting can be. It HAS substantially changed the landscape of martial arts.

    I'm just genuinely surprised that someone that has done martial arts for 30 years can seriously think that Kyokushinkai is like MMA.
    As such it's ironic that it was you that told me I needed more information.
    It suggests to me that that person needs to look at, or do, more of both.

    Wasn't it you that compared MMA to dog fighting a few posts back?
    And it's "us" that has something wrong with our attitude?!?
    Odd.
     
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Honestly you really can't be THAT dense, can you?

    I used an experience in my own career to attempt to establish some understanding on a subject. I was hoping to approach this with some level of respect...at least on my part. Fact is, though, P---the answer is "Yes". The cage-fighting i have watch looks really stupid. THATS why I thought it would be worthwhile to find out if there is something more to it than people acting like jerks. Now, the sense that I am getting is that acting like a jerk seems to be a prerequsite to participation.

    Regards.
     
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I fail to see what's dense about what I've written.
    The sense I'm getting is that you don't like having your martial arts knowledge called into doubt and are projecting jerkiness onto others when they do it.
     
  18. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Bruce, serious question, why do you think it looks stupid? That statement is rather vague I would like to respond in a serious manner.
     
  19. TakadaDojoKeith

    TakadaDojoKeith Valued Member

    I think what those guys are saying, while twisting your tail a little, is that your definition of MMA and theirs aren't the same. Kyokushin may indeed have some pounding after a guy hits the ground. But that's not the same as the full ground game a lot of MMA gyms work on.

    Personally, I like having a variety of rule sets and many different promotions for them. I like the UFC's unified rules and the old Pride rules. I like the RINGS/ZST rules (hitting standing up, but not on the ground), shootboxing rules (all strikes, throws and submissions, but on in the standing postition), and even seikendo rules (a mix of sumo, kickboxing and catch-wrestling rules). I consider them all MMA, but other guys might not.

    That is all. I will now return to lurking.:vanish:
     
  20. TakadaDojoKeith

    TakadaDojoKeith Valued Member

    FWIW, I think shidokan is a kind of MMA. I mean, 3 sets of rules in one match? Sounds like a lot of martial arts mixing to me. :)
     
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