What is MMA?

LOL, stubborn? Yes. Slow? Yes. Squeamish? No

And I honestly did LOL at "You could enter an MMA fight."

I'd look SMASHING in my fancy dobak, eh?

 

but the thing is - you dont have an outlet for execution in HKD either so basically your training is the same as the MMA ruleset.

the thing is. in the MA's that many MMA players use, they have things like flows between wristlocks and armlocks like hapkido (as you described) as well as continuous beatings.
so you could easily make the transition from hapkido training into an MMA ruleset.

also mate you've moved the topic off what Bruce was saying: "what is MMA and how do they train" (you know you dont have to defend him, i dont think he understands what MMA actually is, where as you seem reasonably knowledgable)

 

How does a possible lack of information have anything to do with me being personable or smart? Why does it need to be personal like that, Killa? So because I may not see the whole picture I'm somehow ... "less"...

Even the most charismatic people can be mistaken. That shouldn't be a character ding.

I'll gladly read that and anything else you'd care to send. I have never turned my back on learning more, and in fact I thank you for sharing it. I have a pretty big mouth and a wide throat, I can eat my words easily enough if I'm truly wrong, and I'd much rather do that and end up educated then cling to misinformation.

 

from the link I posted a few posts above...

Spoiler

A Tired Debate

I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.

Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).

You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.

Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.

Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco. My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.

Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain That's involved in earning that strong base.

I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.

In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think That's fine. But That's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.

Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand. A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.

Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cutting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.

This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray,etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them. -Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton

 

...yep


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XACGbYck&feature=player_embedded"]Tomiki Tournament - kotegaeshi - YouTube[/ame]

Something like this would be legal, right?

 

Just wanted to try a point out that I thought you were smart enough to recognize the arguments presented to you thus far and I think it's a bit embarrassing reading your posts. And I think that's a bit of a shame. Not that I expect you to care very much for that opinion.

 

....... dude... I honestly didnt even think about that.... *sigh*... all that typing... for nothing... damn you Zaad! Where were you and your stupid logic an hour and four raw finger tips ago??? I blame you.

Thats REALLY interesting to be honest. I know many have tried to get me to take on that challenge. Maybe I should if for no other reason than just to see what the heck all the hubub is about....

LOL, apparently I'm ANYTHING BUT knowledgeable But I do apologize for steering things away from the main topic. I have reading to do so I'll leave y'all to steer it back while I go edumacate myself a bit.

 

Wow!

 

dude. do it!

id love to just see a video of you body slam some fool a superheavy weight comp.

but really as long as you have a good base of standing striking and grappling and ground striking and grappling you should do okay in comps.

im actually surprised hapkido guys werent the first to take on the challenges MMA provides and the perspective it gives to help round out any weaknesses in your training.

 

I'll edit for the sake of the board. If you have an issue with me you could always try PMs. Tossing that condescending crap out there in posts is something I felt you were above.

 

Well, I'm sorry I offended you. I think you might have taken it harshly or maybe I'm oblivious to the patronising and offensive nature of what I've said.

I don't think what you wrote pre edit was against the TOS or too strong for the boards, it's simply how you feel and I'm truly sorry you do.

 

never mind.

Carry on with the thread at hand, please.

 

No, that's not what I mean at all. And I agree completely with what PASmith said in response to my post. That there is a sort of "MMA style" at this point. It's not set in stone. But there are 1) basic circumstances that need to be specifically addressed and 2) commonly accessed styles for addressing them. The circumstances are pretty reliable. They're dictated by the ruleset. One-on-one. Fight continues on the ground. Standing striking is permitted, etc. The styles are more up for grabs, though it's clear that muay thai, boxing, wrestling, and BJJ are frequently in the mix.

None of which has anything to do with just throwing two people in the ring and seeing who comes out in better shape. There is a highly organized and rational approach to MMA training. I'm just saying that the organizing principle behind that approach is the competitive format.

 

BigMikey,

As for all MMA guys wanting to compete, not true. I have 5 years of submission grappling mixed with some boxing and little MT. I never once competed and neither did a lot of people at the school where I trained. I did it because it was hard and I enjoyed. By the time I turned 57 I wasn't enjoying it as much so I have quit training. Too hard on these old joints and I could see my reflexes were not near as good as those young whippersnappers.

Every thing I learned is applicable in the streets, I wouldn't jump guard in a street fight but if I ended up on the ground I know what to do.

I think the one thing that training MMA does, including it's subcomponents of BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, etc is that it toughens you up real quick. It's not unusual to see newbs tap out from things that aren't even submissions or get smacked in the face and turn away. After a while they lose that fear and develop a higher pain threshold. Also they start to pick up the experience to be able to tell the difference between things that are uncomfortable and when things are going to go snap. A very useful skill if you are ever in a fight.

So, I highly recommend going to an MMA school and trying a couple of intro classes. They are often free or very cheap. I think you might like it and you wouldn't have to compete if you didn't want to.

 

I am reading the bit that Killa sent me and I've gone back to re-read a lot of whats been written here. *sigh*... I honestly wasn't getting it and I feel rather thick now. Thanks Zaad. Sometimes the simplest statement makes all the difference.

I think I am more curious about MMA (BJJ in particular), after this than I ever have been, due largely to my own misconceptions. So all in all, shame not withstanding, I think this thread has been valuable if only for that.

So, I may very well give it a go in the spirit of learning just how much I didnt know

 

One of the coolest things in the world is to sink a choke in just right. Your partner has about 7 to 10 seconds to tap before he is asleep. When it is applied right it doesn't hurt and he can still breathe, shame none of the oxygen is getting to the brain though.

One of the most suck things in the world is to have someone put a choke on you and they don't have it set just right. Feels like someone is standing on your throat.

How can you pass up good stuff like that?

 

Actually, there are Hapkido competitions:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJX4L304PSo"]Hapkido full contact sparring - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NLUm1-UXXU"]Pro-Hapkido Championships '05 - YouTube[/ame]

I think the TV show "Fight Quest" did an episode where they focused on competitive Hapkido. I'm guessing that your organization doesn't emphasize it, though?

Anyway, I clipped the above text because of some points I'd like to address.

"There's a difference between sport and real life"- Agreed. Though some "sports" are more realistic than others. I've got a good friend who's a 3rd degree BB in WTF TKD, and has multiple AAU medals, and his take on the usefullness of his skill set was, "I can kick the guy really hard in the nuts. That's about it. Keep training boxing".

"MMA has a huge competitive element"- Yes, in that if you train "for MMA" you train for the competitive format. However, I'd guess only 10% of people, maybe a little more, who train in an MMA-oriented school or gym ever compete in MMA.

While you've focused on the ends, I tend to look at the means. What does "MMA training" actually mean? It means I'm learning striking and grappling from standing, the clinch, and the ground. It means I'm learning punches, kicks, knee and elbow strikes, throws/takedowns, clinch and ground transitions, joint locks, chokes, and pins. I'm also learning how to defend against all of the above. And I'm doing it with a degree of contact very much like "real life". I've had my bell rung and had to fight through it. I've had guys who outweighed me by 80lbs pin me down and had to escape while the air was being squeezed out of my lungs. I've had to fend off trained guys who were trying to complete a choke on me. Changing the venue from a cage, ring, or mat to a parking lot or what have you doesn't change the fact that I've fought out of those tough situations. Or that the mechanics of a hip throw are the same, or that I've been trained to throw strikes with power and accuracy as others have been thrown back at me, and so on. There are differences in the build-up to the confrontation, in what my strategy may be (escape becoming paramount in most cases), or that other variables may come into play. But I've got training and experience in striking and grappling under pressure, and to me, that's one of the most valuable aspects of MMA training. And it's something that, in my experience, is unfortunately absent from many other martial arts formats.

I've got two stories that relate to this:

1) One time while practicing with a group of guys in public, we had a young woman walk up and ask what we were doing. Over the course of the conversation, she revealed that she'd taken some self-defense classes, and I asked her if she'd be willing to test them out. So I put her in a standing rear choke, while she stomped my foot and elbowed my ribs. Stomp-stomp, elbow-elbow, tap-tap. We ran through it a couple of times, and I told her to really put some force into it, but the results were the same. I showed her a defense based more on leverage (and defending the choke first), but it illustrates an issue I have with some formats- they don't train under pressure. This young lady (who, to put it politely, was above my weight class and not a skinny little waif) had been taught a defense that she would probably have relied on if things had gone bad for her, without ever testing it out, most likely taught by someone who'd never had to test it out, either. The MMA format allows for pressure testing with a number of variables taken into consideration.

2) A friend of mine, who we'll call Mini Me, was jumped by three guys. Aside from a few karate classes he'd taken when he was younger, his training was entirely what I was teaching him, which was more or less Mark Hatmaker's MMA-centric system. To this end, he covered up from punches (boxing roots), and when knocked to the ground, used the "swim to safety" method of ground-and-pound" defense (featured on Mark's video "Clean Sweeps", a technique we'd actually just practiced earlier in the week), then used his grip on one of the attackers to get to his feet and used the clinch control to force the guy up against a dumpster (clinch control rooted in Greco-Roman wrestling). The guy broke free and they all ran off, but these "sport" methods kept my friend from taking a kicking against multiple opponents. It could have gone better, but considering he only trained with me sparringly and was the victim of an ambush I think he did quite well.

 

Callsign, while I cant view the videos here at work I want to thank you for that post.

I admit I wasn't getting it. I try to be open minded, I really do, but sometimes the valve gets stuck and I end up stupid. It's unintentional, I assure you.

My view has been altered accordingly. Thank you very much!

 

Yeah, that was probably overkill, but I started typing about an hour before I posted it. That's what I get for having five windows open on my browser, I suppose!

 

LOL, not at all man! It was a good post!