What is MMA?

if you tap out in the ring then the out of ring equivalent is that you've been choked unconscious, had your spine/arm/leg broken.
if those things happen on the street then you've probably lost the fight so tapping out is a good training tool for street scenarios.

 

Are you still being a "snot" or have you really missed the point he made?

 

I agree, Zaad. Earlier I was just being difficult. Although I honestly dont get the last bit Killa tossed in there and the little jabs he's taking.

 

It surprises me that people write this (especially someone as clever as Mikey).
Every time a MMA guy taps out there's a MMA guy that isn't because he won the fight!
When you imagine this mythical street fight happening imagine the guy that won fighting it rather than the guy that lost.
Have a look at Ronda Rousey fighting Meisha Tate to see what would happen when an MMA guy doesn't get a tap in a "real fight". Snap.
The tap is a training protocol used in EVERY martial art I've ever done that employs joint locks (inc. your readl deal Hapkido). It's not a weakness but indicative of how near the edge of reality MMA can be. People tap because they will have their limbs broken or their brain deprived of O2.
If people aren't tapping then their training is probably not robust enough.

 

No, that didnt go over very well so I've left that to those who do it better, Dean.

But seriously, as I edited my post to say, I've read it three times. I agree with the part that mma bouts are more real than one-step sparring in a dobak. But I dont walk around in a dobak and I dont JUST do 1 step sparring, nor would I in a street situation, so again, I dont get it. Thats like me saying, a Boxer walks around in head gear all the time and only hits things that resemble heavy bags.

Maybe I'm just having an off-day or something but it seems a bit silly to me. Of COURSE I dont walk around in a dobak expecting someone to grab my chest and stand there waiting for me to do something. Nor would I expect the boxer I mentioned to walk around with his mouth guard in or his gloves on.

If I've missed it then please, in all sincerity, help me out rather than take cheap shots like Killa chose to.

 

I don't think the dobak was the important part of his comment.

 

LOL, wow it really DIDNT go over well, did it? Sheesh. PA, I was just trying to be goofy about the whole thing. My only contention with it is when folks go on about how brutal MMA IS (not CAN be, but IS) when at any point the one being pounded can simply tap the mat and it all ends.

I understand its usefulness and its purpose and to be honest, I'm glad its there. But to me, having a safety cord to pull when things get to heavy takes away from that "lethal brutality" and just makes the guy who DOESNT tap out rather stupid, lol...

 

Ok, that leaves the one step sparring. Just because I train that way doesnt mean I'll fight that way. We do far more than that. To assume thats all we do is to assume incorrectly. I have never taken boxing, but I'm sure they dont just practice against a heavy bag and they dont just practice against stationary opponents either. So I dont see where he's going....

If an MMA fighter trains against an opponent, does he always train full on, 100% or does he sometimes do things at half speed? Does he always train for a whole bout or does he sometimes train for a specific attack or defense? That's no different than us. Yes, we DO use some 1 step sparring, but we do so much more. So if his comparison is that all we do is that, he's wrong and I'm confused.

 

What do you do Mikey?

I know very little about Hapkido.

 

You're losing me (and I don't think I'm the only one).
I don't even know what point you're trying to make TBH.

 

If you have the chance to tap out anytime you want, right? But you DONT, and just lay there getting pounded to pudding - you're an idiot. Thats my point.

When people say MMA is so brutal and lethal, my argument is "only if you dont tap out" and I dont know why you wouldnt. If you're on top of me and I have no way to get out, I'm not going to sit there and get my teeth knocked into my **** in the hopes I can out last you and regain the advantage. I"m a tappin FOOL!

So, my whole point NOW, is that in HKD we aren't taught to tap in a real fight, there is no out other than running away. But we'd have already tried that so again, theres no out. Thats the only difference I'm trying to point out.

On the one hand, in the RING, which is the purpose to MMA as I understand it, I can tap and bail. In most TMAs which dont have a ring or competitive option, the purpose is to survive a street beating which doesnt recognize tapping out as a viable way to end the pain.

If you're lost after that, then imagine how I feel...

 

MMA guys aren't taught to tap in a real fight either (if MMA guys are fussed about real fighting at all which in general they aren't really).
What makes you think they are?
You seem to be mixing up tapping in training (which you do), tapping in a sport (which you admit you would also do) and then using those two facts to somehow imagine that MMA guys would tap in a real fight if they were losing (a fact you've imagined).
If a MMA loses a street fight he'd get punched, kicked, stomped and maybe killed or crippled just like if a Hapkido guy lost a street fight.
I'm failing to see why a training protocol that is shared across MANY arts now makes MMA somehow weak or easy?
So sadly..I am still a little lost as to why tapping (so someone can carry on training and/or competing) is such an issue for you.

You should try MMA Mikey. Man of your background would do well I think and you wouldn't have to jump over chairs and stuff to do it.

 

Well firstly, thanks for asking!

HKD as I am learning it has no competitive variation. It's straight self defense. There are no tournament variations of HKD that I know of.

We focus on joint locks/breaks, throws, grappling and also use kicks which resemble many of those found in TKD and other forms of Karate such as front, side and roundhouse kicks as well as shin kicks, crescent kicks, etc.

Training focuses on techniques such as what we call Yellow Belt 1: Defense against a wrist grab. Initially we learn it in a 1 step environment. But later we're taught to combine this with other techniques so that the whole sequence becomes far more realistic and useful. For example, the opponent grabs the right wrist. Instantly the reaction is throat strike, or face slap, followed by applying pressure to the pressure point between forefinger and thumb of the grabbing hand while bringing that hand to the chest. The opponents wrist is already bent significantly by now causing pain. At this point, clamping it firmly to the chest, I slide out my right hand and apply pressure at the elbow, downward, with a knifehand.

From here I can break the wrist if I want or, by pulling back on the elbow and causing the arm to bend I can create even more pain. I can decide to hold the attacker and wait for police or complete the break and leave him clutching his broken limb.

Thats it in a nutshell.

 

so what do you do in hapkido classes where you dont tap and are unconcious or have a broken arm? how are you taught to keep fighting?
does your training partner beat on you when unconscious or crippled?

a tap signifies an "ending" technique. a technique that ends the conflict like someone passing out or losing a limb, which if they happened in a street fight they would probably end the conflict.

i cant tell if you're still being a snot or not.

 

MMA is great fun!

I have had more fun playing MMA than judo and TKD combined

The coaches and the other guys have been welcoming and humble

Before I attended my first class I thought they other guys would be brash and brutish, but they are normal, just like me....well perhaps not like me, but everyday guys

Try it out Bruce, you might be surprised at how much you will enjoy it, especially if you have some judo ;]

 

But they're not fighting in the street. I think thats where this all goes awry. I dont HAVE a competition outlet for what I learn. Its the street. Period. MMA has that ring, that competitive outlet. Thats what I'm addressing.

I never said weak OR easy, PA. Please don't do that. MMA is anything BUT weak or easy. I may not see it as lethal but I give it the respect its due.

I've never seen an MMA guy anywhere but TV, in a ring. In THAT CONTEXT, they tap, the beating stops. I dont see where the confusion lies. I've said again and again "THE RING" because MMA has that avenue and its very popular. HKD has no such avenue. There in lies my distinction. In no way, can I take what I've learned, head down to the local HKD tourney and compete. Any MMA practitioner has the chance to compete.

It's a difference. Thats my point. Now, to yours, if I CAN tap and dont, but choose to get pounded instead then I'm an idiot. Likewise, in HKD, if I'm in a hold and I dont tap, but get my wrist broken, I'm an idiot. How brutal is something that someone can just tap out of?

I'm not speaking for MMA in the street as I've never seen, nor met an MMA practitioner that doesnt want to climb in the ring. I can only speak to what I know.

So I guess I"m lost too because I dont see the disconnect between what I'm saying and what you're reading.

Maybe this will help. Lets use TKD. Yes, there are real life applications to TKD. But the VAST majority of modern TKD is geared toward tourney point fighting, no? I can be DEVASTATING in the tourney, truly a wonder to behold. That doesnt mean I'll be good on the street. And, just like what i'm trying to say about MMA from the competitive end, if a TKD player kicks an opponent in the chest on the street and then turns his back, as he's been trained to do, he's dead.

It's the difference between sport and real life. I'm not saying one is better, just DIFFERENT. I dont know enough about MMA personally to make a determination from a personal standpoint as to which I prefer. But I can't get past the HUGE competition aspect to MMA as it being its real focus.

If I'm wrong I'll not only read the lengthy post correcting me but I'll be more than thankful for the correction. If I've missed some huge part to MMA - which is entirely possible, please help me see that. But from where I stand, given what I've seen and been exposed to, I say MMA trains people in competition to tap and walk. Since I have no competitive comparison to make between MMA and HKD, I have to think that since we lack that competitive angle, maybe our take is more realistic. Thats not BETTER mind you, just different, as I've said.

 

ZAAD, you're confusing training with execution as well. Seems to be a big issue here.

Yes, in TRAINING we tap. When two MMA fighters are in a ring, supposedly there to give it there all, they can still tap. As I've said three times now, I dont have a competitive outlet for what I know. Theres training and execution. Thats it. In training we tap, in execution we SNAP.

In a way I'm seeing that this isnt an apples to apples comparison. Due to the competition aspect of MMA it adds an element that I can't compare HKD to directly. I think thats whats throwing this whole thing off into odd spins.

 

You could enter an MMA fight.
Everything in wrist defence number 1 would be perfectly legal in MMA.

 

Same in MMA. Sorry if squemish.

 

you're falling into the trap of buying into a very old fallacy. It's a shame because you're a smart and personable guy.

Try reading this and checking out the links...

http://www.straightblastgym.com/street.htm